[Lal]

We will continue here the discussion started under the topic, “Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125)“.

This post,”Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“, was written to clarify the issues discussed there.

[Johnny_Lim]

“A saddhānusārī is incapable of dying (separating) from that Noble birth until he realizes the Sotāpanna stage.”

Can one assume likewise for the rest of the Ariyan Magga Phala sets?

[Lal]

I thought that was obvious. I have revised the post to confirm that.

[Akvan]

Hi,

Johnny asked; “A saddhānusārī is incapable of dying (separating) from that Noble birth until he realizes the Sotāpanna stage.”Can one assume likewise for the rest of the Ariyan Magga Phala sets?

Lal replied; I thought that was obvious.

I’m kind of confused with this question. Are you asking whether a Sakadagami anugami, is incapable of dying until he attains the sakadagami stage, and similarly for anagami and arahanth anugami?

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Akvan,

“Are you asking whether a Sakadagami anugami, is incapable of dying until he attains the sakadagami stage, and similarly for anagami and arahanth anugami?”

That’s right.

[Lal]

OK. I see the misunderstanding.

I have revised #4, #5, and #9 of the post to make it more clear.

“A saddhānusārī (or dhammānusārī) is incapable of dying (separating) from that Noble birth until he realizes the Sotāpanna stage”. This does not mean a saddhānusārī will attain the Sotāpanna stage within that lifetime. Once “born as a Noble Person” one will not die from that birth, i.e., one WILL get to the Arahant stage without ever getting a birth in the apāyās.
– One gets a “Noble birth” when attaining the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage. One is now one of the “attha purisa puggalā“.

So, basically, a Sōtapanna Anugāmi may be born many times a human until getting to the Sōtapanna stage (may even have many human bhava, each with many human jāti).
– Once getting to the Sōtapanna stage, there would be only seven maximum number of “bhava” left, within which one WILL attain the Arahant stage.

I just translated the sutta in #4. It was clear to me, but I realize that it may not be clear to someone just reading the post.
– The post was already a bit long. This is why it is hard to provide a good translation of a sutta without getting into details.
– A given sutta (especially deep ones) need to be discussed in detail.

[upekkha100]

Lal wrote:
-“This does not mean a saddhānusārī will attain the Sotāpanna stage within that lifetime. ”

-“So, basically, a Sōtapanna Anugāmi may be born many times a human until getting to the Sōtapanna stage (may even have many human bhava, each with many human jāti). ”

That makes me wonder about the time when the Buddha was here. What if those who were able to attain Sotapanna stage and other stages of magga phala so quickly(more quickly than others) were not mere puthujjana, but were already Sotapanna Anugami, hence why they needed just a bit more push. And those who took longer were puthujjana, not even Sotapanna Anugami yet.

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

What is the difference between a sotapanna and a sakadagami anugami? Isn’t a sotapanna automatically a sakadagami anugami?

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

When one becomes a Sotapnna, one does not automatically become a Sakadagami Anugami.
– One needs to keep striving. In most cases that is likely to happen.

But there are instances when one attains a magga phala at the dying moment, say the Sotapanna phala.
– But in the next birth that person may be born to a family where Buddha Dhamma may not even be heard about. In that case, one would just be a Sotapanna for the duration of that life.
– Of course, that person will attain the Arahanthood within 7 bhava.

[y not]

Is it not that once on the Path, one needs no external help until one reaches Arahanthood?

That is, within seven bhava the Arahanthood will be attained (if it is not implied that those bhava take place in a Buddha sasana AND in a family with access to the Dhamma, but THAT would then be ‘external help’). But a bhava in a Buddhas sasana is extremely rare.

I see it like this:

If ‘one would just be a Sotapanna for the duration of that life’, and that may happen over and over for the next six bhava, then no progress can be made and Arahanthood will not be attained, for by far the most bhavas are outside of Buddha sasanas,or in families where Dhamma is unknown, yet they add up to the necessary seven, so progress will be made even outside of a Buddha sasana,or outside of a Dhamma environment in a Buddha sasana, given that no further external help is necessary.

[Lal]

y not wrote: “Is it not that once on the Path, one needs no external help until one reaches Arahanthood?”

Yes. But causes are not enough in Buddha Dhamma; suitable conditions must be there too.
– However, suitable conditions will appear in due time. That is called the “nature of things” or “dhammatā”.
– For example, a Sotapanna (or a Sakadagami anugami) may not make any progress in a particular human birth (due to unfavorable conditions), but will catch in future births in due time.

“so progress will be made even outside of a Buddha sasana.”

No progress can be made outside the Buddha Sasana.
– It must be noted that the time limit for Buddha Sasana of 5000 years or so holds only in this “human world”. That limit is not there in deva and brahma worlds.
– Buddha Sasana in the human world ends when the last Sotapanna (and of course any other with magga phala) have all passed away. But they may be reborn in higher realms and can take a much longer time to get to the Arahanthood.
– For example, a Sotapanna deva may attain the next stage much later than 5000 years.
– There are brahmas in higher brahma realms who had attained the Anagami stage during the time of a previous Buddha who lives several maha kappas earlier.

[Lvalio]

Congratulations to all of you!
May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with all of you!
This Post, in my humble opinion it’s been great so far!
Not only clarified many doubts as also quoted many Suttas that came passing unnoticed until now.
Magnificent Lal post too:
“Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās”

Thank you very much for all of you!
I have been following closely and looking for any references to archive in a nice study that I think, conclusive, on the subject. (So far)!

[Lvalio]

I think too many of us, can be “saddhānusārī”, that is, we were born to reach the true Dhamma of the Lord Buddha, without even know it.
Say this for my particular story, which eventually I will report “in totun” in the appropriate section:
Personal Experiences →
Like, couldn’t find Post´s Lal “Pure Dhamma”, in 2016, August???
As eventually learned English enough to understand and read the posts of Lal, when properly requested by the only Brazilian Bhikkhu (Mudito Bhikkhu) to translate
“Issues from the Moss” of Mali Bagoien???
I don’t think it was just a coincidence.

[y not]

Lal,

“No progress can be made outside the Buddha Sasana”.

Thank you.

‘a Sotapanna (or a Sakadagami anugami) may not make any progress in a particular human birth (due to unfavourable conditions) …” what if that applied to all the births of that human bhava, that is that bhava itself, will that bhava ‘count’ as one of those still left at that time (for no progress has been made) yet one more bhava will have been gone through? Or…dhammata will work against that eventuality. Is that it?

I want to clear this.

And…. Lvalio: thank you for your kind and sincere words and for your contributions. I feel deeply grateful.
May you attain the Deathless!

[Lal]

y not wrote: ” Or…dhammata will work against that eventuality. Is that it?”

Yes.

[Lal]

I just came across a sutta that provides a more detailed description of Noble Persons. This is “Saupādi­sesa­ Sutta (AN 9.12)“.

• I will try to write a post on it a later, but the key points are discussed below.

Five kinds of Anāgāmis (of course including those Arahant Anugamis):

-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā antarā­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā upahac­ca­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā uddhaṃsoto hoti akaniṭṭhagāmī“.

They all have overcome the first five samyojana of sakkāya ditthi, vicikiccā, and silabbata parāmāsa, kāma rāga, patigha. 

• The first one was discussed at the forum: “Antara Parinibbana“.
• The fifth category are those born in the Akanittha brahma realm, the highest realm reserved for the Anāgāmis; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
• Therefore, I suspect that the second, third, fourth types belong to those born in the other brahma realms reserved for the Anāgāmis.

Then there is the Noble Person with the Sakadāgāmī phala (including those Anāgāmi Anugamis):

• “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”
  Translated: “With the ending of three fetters (saṃyojanā), and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion,  a Sakadāgāmī will come back to this world only once to deva realms”.

Lastly, there is the Sōtapanna and two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmi:
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.

Translated:
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, an ekabījī will be reborn just one time in a human existence (bhava), then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a kolaṅkolo will be  two or three bhava then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a sattak­khat­tu­paramo has most seven bhava among devas and humans and then make an end of suffering”.

Thus it is clear that an ekabījī is a Sōtapanna. 

The last two must be the two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmis discussed in the post “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“:
“dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.

I am not sure yet how kolaṅkolo and sattak­khat­tu­paramo categories are to be identified with dhammānusārī and saddhānusārī categories.

However, the number of remaining bhava before attaining the Arahanthood is more precise in this classification of ekabījī, kolaṅkolo, and sattak­khat­tu­paramo.

[y not]

Lal:

I myself had made reference to that Sutta (AN 9.12) in the post ‘Sotapanna information from the Sutta-pitaka’ in the Sotapanna Forum (18 Oct) having come across it myself 9 MONTHS after Sybe quoted AN 3.87 in the same context (of the 3 types of Sotapannas) back on 24 Jan.

Although we had discussed this, I now find that one point I missed ,and a very significant one, was the very last verse:

‘Na tāvāyaṃ, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo paṭibhāsi bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ upāsakānaṃ upāsikānaṃ. Taṃ kissa hetu? Māyimaṃ dhamma­pariyā­yaṃ sutvā pamādaṃ āhariṃsūti. Api ca mayā, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo pañhā­dhip­pā­yena bhāsito”ti.’

‘Sāriputta, this discourse should not be taught to bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay male disciples and female disciples until such time. What is the reason? May they be not negligent hearing this discourse. Yet I teach it to those who are wise’

Meaning, to my mind, that when one knows that one is free from the apayas, the tendency to stop striving creeps in UNLESS one also has the wisdom to see the consequences of that and strives first against that. Because it says: ‘It should not be taught to Bhikkhus…etc’ yet the Buddha Himself is teaching it here. But His intention is that it reaches, and be of benefit to, those with wisdom. The rest had better not know about it. For the teaching Bhikkhus cannot tell who has wisdom and who has not. But teach they must. How it affects the listeners will depend on their having or not having wisdom.

How do you see this?

Thank you

[Lal]

OK, y not. I must have somehow missed the bigger point.

It is a good thing that you mentioned that last verse. I did not pay attention to that either!:
‘Na tāvāyaṃ, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo paṭibhāsi bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ upāsakānaṃ upāsikānaṃ. Taṃ kissa hetu? Māyimaṃ dhamma­pariyā­yaṃ sutvā pamādaṃ āhariṃsūti. Api ca mayā, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo pañhā­dhip­pā­yena bhāsito”ti.’

It should be actually translated as:
Sāriputta, I did not give this explanation of the teaching to the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen until now.  Why is that? For I didn’t want those who have progressed to lower phala stages to slow down their efforts. However, I have explained it now, in order to answer your question.”

So, this seems to be the first instance where the Buddha explained how long it would take to attain Arahanthood from the lower phala stages. Basically, one may think that as long as one is free from the apayas, there is no urgency to proceed further. In fact, as I have pointed out before, some bhikkhus needed to be admonished by the Buddha not to “slow down”.

[y not]

Thank you Lal.

I had missed it. You had missed it. I do not know how many others have as well. Probably most. Is it too extravagant to suppose that it is meant that way? – dhammata.

With Infinite Gratitude!

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

You mentioned: Thus it is clear that an ekabījī is a Sōtapanna.
The last two must be the two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmis discussed in the post “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“: “dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.

In the Puggala Pannatti ekabījī, kolaṅkolo and sattak¬khat¬tu¬paramo has been explained. Here all three have been explained as “thinnang sanyojananang parikkaya sotapnno hoti…” meaning that all three are sotapanna not sotapanna anugami. The differences between the three are the amounts of time they take to attain nibbana as you have mentioned.

For both dhammānusārī and saddhānusārī, the explanations are “yassa puggalassa sotapattiphalasacchikiriyaya patipannassa…”, which means that both of them are sotapanna anugami.

You mentioned: I am not sure yet how kolaṅkolo and sattak¬khat¬tu¬paramo categories are to be identified with dhammānusārī and saddhānusārī categories.

They are not the same or overlapping. The distinction between dhammānusārī and
saddhānusārī are that the pragna indriya is more developed for the dhammanusari while the saddha indriya is more developed for the saddhanusari. When a dhammanusari attains sotapanna phala he is a dhittappaththo, and a sddhanusari when attained the phala is a saddhavimuththo.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

You wrote: “In the Puggala Pannatti ekabījī, kolaṅkolo and sattak¬khat¬tu¬paramo has been explained. Here all three have been explained as “thinnang sanyojananang parikkaya sotapnno hoti…”

Do you have a link for that?

[Christian]

I do not know if you find it useful but here is some information

https://tipitaka.fandom.com/wiki/Puggala-Pannatti-Chap.7

[Lal]

Thanks, Christian.
But it would be good if the Pali version with Akvan’s quote can be found.

P.S. I think I just found it. I need some time to go through it:
7. Satta­ka­pugga­la­paññatti

I need to publish a post today and have some travel tomorrow to get ready for. So, it may take a couple of days.
– In the meantime, if anyone can come with a consistent explanation please do so.

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

Here is a link to the pali section: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/pp2.1

This is how I have understood all this;

There are two types of sotapanna anugami (Sotapattiphalasacchikiriyaya paṭipanno) based on their dominant faculty. The pragna dominant person is a dhammanusari and a saddha dominant person is a saddhanusari.

There are three types of sotapanna based on the time they will take to attain nibbana; sattakkhattuparamo, kolamkolo and ekabiji.

Sotapanna’s can also be categorised into two based on the dominant faculty they used to attain the sotapanna phala; ditthippatto and saddhavimutto.

I don’t see any inconsistencies in the above.

The only possible issue I have is in the following;

In the explanation of ekabījī, kolaṅkolo, and sattakkhattuparamo the differences for the three are as follows:

So sattakkhattuṃ deve ca mānuse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti— ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “sattakkhattuparamo”.

So dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti—ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “kolaṃkolo”.

So ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti—ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “ekabījī”.

Although you said that the number of remaining bhava are precise for these three, the word bhava is only mentioned for ekabiji, while for others it is not mentioned specifically as bhava.

[Lal]

Akvan wrote:
“This is how I have understood all this;

There are two types of sotapanna anugami (Sotapattiphalasacchikiriyaya paṭipanno) based on their dominant faculty. The pragna dominant person is a dhammanusari and a saddha dominant person is a saddhanusari.

There are three types of sotapanna based on the time they will take to attain nibbana; sattakkhattuparamo, kolamkolo and ekabiji.”

I have been able to look into this a bit more, and your above conclusions are correct.

The only remaining questions are regarding the time it takes to attain the Arahanthood.

I need more time to verify, by it seems that there are no set time limits for the dhammanusari and the saddhanusari (Sotapanna Anugamis) to attain the Arahanthood.
– However, they will NEVER be born again in the apayas. So, the post, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās” is accurate.
– I will write a post, but may take some time. I am going through some medical issues.

[Lal]

Just published a post on this topic confirming what I stated above:
“Attha Purisa Puggalā- Eight Noble Persons“.

We can discuss any remaining issues here. No need to open a new thread.

I will try to publish one more post before taking a break. But I will be able to take part in the forum until about the 14th. Then I will be taking a few weeks off.

[Author]

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