[Tobias G]

See posts:
Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview

Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’   #9

I understand that one must approach the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi gradually, progressing from the Nava Kamma stage to the Purana Kamma stage and then to the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi without kama sanna. A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā to reach Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.

In #9 mentioned above it is said: “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!” In Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi one should do Vipassana. But Vipassana requires dhammas. Even Buddha dhamma is a worldly object and belongs to this world. In Vipassana one must think about concepts/dhammas in relation to worldly objects to understand the anicca nature of these. That seems a contradiction to the text in bold above. Can someone explain?  

On the other hand this sentence is much clearer: “Of course, Ānanda. There is such a saññā. It is the saññā of ‘cooling down associated with Nibbāna.” <br />
When thinking about dhamma concepts the mind cools down and the panca nivarana are not present. That seems to be the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi and Samatha.

[Lal]

1. It is true that the Buddha Dhamma also belongs to the world. 

• However, Buddha Dhamma includes only concepts, not ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
• Sankhata (things in the world) arise via raga, dosa, moha/avijja arising in the mind. 
• A mind devoid of raga, dosa, moha/avijja (the mind of an Arahant) will no longer generate sankhata and is dissociated from the world.
• This is why Nibbana is called ‘asankhata.’ See “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
• Also, see “Asaṅkhata Sutta (SN 43.12)” and “Maggaṅga Sutta (SN 43.11).”

2. One’s mind is always fooled by the ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.

• By focusing the mind on such things, one can never get to Nibbana. That is why ‘breath meditation’ can never lead to Nibbana, even though it can provide a ‘temporary relief.’
• This is why it is critical to understand that ‘color’ does not even exist in the world. However, the mind has conjured up a way to give the perception of color. 
• We would not even be able to see ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world, if the mind did not fool us with ‘color perception.’ 
• If one can understand the following two posts, it would clear up many issues: “Rūpa Samudaya – A ‘Colorful World’ Is Created by the Mind” and “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.” 
• Feel free to ask further questions.

[Tobias G]

Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.

Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature? After all, the things of the world can be whatever they want; if one cannot permanently obtain what one wants, dukkha arises, and thus existence is pointless. Then it also doesn’t matter whether colors come from things or are mind-made. Furthermore, I wonder where the Buddha says that colors are merely mind-made and that this is a problem.

Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).

regarding the sentence:  “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!”  Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK? 

[Lal]

“Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.”

• To understand that one must know what “paramita” means. Learning/comprehending Buddha’s teachings may not happen in a single lifetime. Different people are at different stages of that. Normally, when a Buddha is born into the world, there are numerous people who have fulfilled “paramita” to higher levels and are ‘almost there’, able to complete that process. They don’t need detailed explanations. But most people today need ‘all the help they can get.’ In other words, those people were able to grasp the fact that not only sights, but all other sense faculties arise to ‘fool us’ with the ‘built-in’ kama sanna.
• Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?

________

“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”

• To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).

____________

“Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).”

• That is correct.

______________

“regarding the sentence:  “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!”  Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK? “

• Yes. I say that “meditation object shall not be a ‘thing of this world,’ but dhamma concepts are OK.” Not only OK, but required!
• One must contemplate Dhamma concepts, and that is the way to avoid ‘kama sanna‘ from triggering thoughts of greed, anger, and ignorance. 
• Focusing the mind on a ‘mundane neutral object” like the breath or a clay ball may calm the mind, but ignorant thoughts arise due to taking a ‘worldly object’ as the focus, still with the ‘kama sanna.’
• In other words, some worldly objects trigger greedy thoughts, some angry thoughts, and those neutral ones trigger ignorant thoughts. 
• When one’s mind begins to comprehend Dhamma concepts, it will automatically move toward the Satipatthana Bhumi. In the days of the Buddha, those who had most of their “paramita” fulfilled were able to grasp those concepts, and their minds would enter the Satipatthana Bhumi during that discourse itself, and even attain the Sotapanna stage. They probably had exposure to concepts like the role of ‘kama sanna‘ in their previous lives. They just needed a ‘little push.’ 

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

Hello Lal, here my reply:

“Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?”

–> I take the fact seriously and I think that the eye sense receives electromagnetic waves which are in fact special types of rupa with a wave function. Our perception is an optimized illusion/deception about a much deeper, more unified reality. The mind builds a useful “user interface” optimized for our survival. Colors, smells, tastes, the sense of time, the solidity of objects—none of these exist “out there” in that form. They are emergent perceptual constructs.

Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.

Colors are inherent in external things:
The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.

Colors are purely mind-made:
The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.

In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature, because one might still not be able to possess this thing, or at least not permanently, in the way one desires (anicca). Even the desired color can eventually become truly irritating (dukkha). Therefore, in my opinion, the difference lies only in the slightly lower perceived value when color is purely mind-made.

______________

“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”

• To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).

–> I disagree. One can also understand the anicca nature of the world by understanding the adinava and viparinama of each sankata, thus grasping the tilakkhana at a basic level. This is sufficient for the sotapanna stage. Only after that does a sotapanna look at deeper aspects, such as the recognition of purana/nava kamma. Actually, it is this aspect that has continued to occupy me: although I understand the Buddha Dhamma quite well, I still indulge in small desires, such as good food. This is due to sanna vipallasa/kama sana in combination with purana/nava kamma and unbroken samyojana/gati. Your series of texts on this topic has helped me a lot. Thank you so much!

• This reply was modified 3 days ago by Tobias G.

[Lal]

Thanks for the input, Tobias. If more people commented, I would be able to address these key issues better.

You made two comments above. Let us categorize them #1 and #2.

___________

#1: You agree that colors are mind-made and do not exist in sunlight or external objects. You also agree that ‘perception of color’ (our experience of color) is for our survival.

• However, you are not making the connection to Buddha’s teachings on the anicca nature.
• Modern science makes the same argument as you do. They say that the perception of color evolved over time. They say that life evolved into more complex forms, starting with primitive forms that lacked color perception. That is based on Darwin’s theory of evolution, which says life evolves to generate ‘more capabilities’ for survival.
• Buddha’s description is the opposite. Life did not evolve on Earth. The first lifeform on the newly formed Earth was humans with ‘Brahma-like subtle bodies’ (not the dense physical bodies we have today); they were also unisexual like Brahmas, no men or women. Initially, they did not need dense food either. However, with time, their minds defiled (because their samyojana or anusaya were NOT eliminated) and they gradually started engaging in immoral deeds. Their bodies changed over millions of years to become denser, and sex organs also evolved (more correctly, it is devolution, the opposite of evolution). Then, the environment also changed with vegetation appearing. That was necessary for the next step: those humans who had engaged in immoral deeds were reborn as animals. I have discussed/summarized that complex account in two posts :
• “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“

____________________

Issue #2 on the anicca nature is firmly attached to issue #1.

• One must first decide which of the two ways to explain how ‘color perception’ appeared. Did it evolve over billions of years as modern science proposes, or is it “built in differently to different living beings based on their gati“? That second process operates via Paticca Samuppada. For example, humans who have better moral gati but crave sensual pleasure are born with sense faculties to ‘enjoy life’ with colorful, tasteful… sensory experiences, while most animals do not ‘enjoy such pleasures’ because of the immoral gati that led to their births.
• As I have explained, the theory of evolution is based on one critical basis. Thoughts arise in the brain. When the brain (i.e., the physical body) dies, that lifeform ends. The ‘evolution of species’ propagates via random mutations in the DNA. Let us get that fact established first. If someone bases their argument on the ‘theory of evolution,’ then Tobias’s explanation holds. If that is the case, then one should first get rid of that ‘wrong worldview’ to follow the Buddha’s teachings. However, that is for each person to decide.
• Regarding the choice between those two possibilities, I can only provide evidence that thoughts can not arise in the brain. This is the main obstacle facing those who advocate Darwin’s theory. They cannot explain how thoughts and perception (including color perception) can arise in the brain, which is made of inert atoms/molecules. It is called the “hard problem of consciousness.” There are two other pieces of evidence against Darwin’s theory (same as the proposition that thoughts/perceptions arise in the brain), and those are rebirth accounts and Near-Death Experiences (NDE): “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”

______________

We can continue the discussion, but we need to make a distinction about how to proceed. 

• We cannot have two separate discussions: (i) Discuss the choice between Darwin’s theory of evolution and Buddha’s theory of Paticca Samuppada, or (ii) Discuss how to explain color perception within Paticca Samuppada. 
• The basis of my posts is the Buddha’s teachings, i.e., color perception arises via Paticca Samuppada. 

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

We can stay with discussion No. (ii).

I don’t care about Darwin’s theory either and how life evolved. What is the connection between anicca and mind-made colors? Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.

Color-recognition is required to live a pleasureable life or life at all. Paticca Samuppada is the process to maintain samsara and hence bhava/jati. The six sense fields are established to enable contact/recognition and that in a way that bhava is supported and extended into the future via new kamma. Thus, our desire for contact and experience is baked into the ayatana, and this manifests as sanna vipallasa.

[Lal]

Of course. I knew that you would choose option (ii).

I will try to explain it a bit more later today or tomorrow. I have a few mundane tasks to finish first.

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Tobias G

[Lal]

Tobias asked in his last comment: “Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.” 

The following is what he wrote in his previous comment:

“Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.

Colors are inherent in external things:

The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.

Colors are purely mind-made:

The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.

In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature..”

______________________

@Tobias: I understand what you are trying to resolve as follows:

Does it really matter whether the color is really in an external object or whether it is mind-made (because it does not affect how we understand the anicca nature)?

• Is that the correct way to reframe your question?

• This reply was modified 2 days ago by Lal.

[Tobias G]

Yes, that is correctly stated. 

[Lal]

OK. This is a great question that could help clarify the issue for many. Let us consider the two possibilities.

Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object

1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.

• Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.
• This was the thought process of ancient yogis who went deep into forests to avoid contact with ‘mind-pleasing things.’
• While some of them successfully cultivated jhāna with that approach, they were not able to eliminate the ‘kāma rāga saṁyojana.’ Thus, they are still not released from the ‘kāma loka.’ 
• Furthermore, since they still held the wrong view that the beauty or attractiveness is associated with external objects, they could not eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa. Thus, they are still not released from the apāyās either.

Objects in the World Do Not Have ‘Color’; Color (and Beauty) Is Mind-Made

2. Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost. 

• That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
• Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).
• See “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.”

3. However, it is not easy to remove that ‘built-in kāma sanna‘ from the mind of even a Sotapanna. We have been trapped in the rebirth process for an eternity because of that. It is not easy to get rid of it.

• Thus, their minds would still attach to ‘attractive things in the world’ and enter the ‘kāma loka‘ automatically. However, since they have removed the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘, they are incapable of ‘taking extreme measures’ (i.e., engaging in apāyagāmi immoral deeds) to fulfill sensory desires. That is why they are released from rebirth in the apāyās.
• A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna or the second stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi free of the kāma saññā to cultivate higher magga phala.
• See “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview.”

4. Another critical point is the following. The mind can only generate energies that can lead to the formation of subtle matter, like the invisible body of a gandhabba or a Brahma. 

• The kammic energy (generated in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage with javana citta) can generate only inert matter in the external world. 
• Both the ‘subtle bodies’ of living beings (with the seat of the mind and the bases of sense faculties) and the inert things of the external world arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda. 
• However, it cannot directly generate ‘mind-pleasing qualities’ (e.g., taste, color) in the external environment. For example, the Paṭicca Samuppāda process cannot generate ‘honey with sweet taste.’ It can only make honey, which would not have taste or color, for example. It can induce that ‘effect of taste’ only via various types of saññā built into the subtle ‘mental bodies’ of living beings. This is why honey may not be sweet for some animals, even though it tastes sweet to us and some other animals.
• Furthermore, the effect of saññā can only trigger very low levels of ‘liking’ (manāpa) at the first moment of encountering an external stimulus. It can grow into magnified ‘kāma assada‘ or “sensual pleasures’ that a puthujjana experiences only if the mind enters ‘kāma loka‘ and goes through many steps (in the ‘purāna kamma‘ and ‘nava kamma‘ stages) that I have discussed.
• I have discussed that the Buddha, or an Arahant, experiences only the faint manāpa stage.
• Thus, the sense of joy one feels with external objects (with attractive colors, tastes, etc.) is almost all mind-made and can be stopped. That is discussed in “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.”
• The problem with attaching to such joyful experiences is that they lead one to commit immoral deeds or akusala kamma. That is what gets one into trouble. Such temptations may be avoided temporarily but can never be stopped until one attains at least the Sotapanna stage, where apāyagāmi deeds are blocked by the mind itself without needing a conscious effort.

___________

Feel free to ask questions. This is a critical issue to sort out.

• Again, thanks to Tobias for formulating that question. Questions like that help me understand what the ‘sticking points’ are. 

• This reply was modified 2 days ago by Lal.

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

Thanks for the explanation! After thinking about it I have a few points to be clarified:

You say: “Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.”

–> This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities? Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?

–> I completely agree with you when you say that the mind, through kama sanna, presents the outer world as “mirage”, adapted to the plane of existence. The ancient yogis were ignorant of the true nature of this world; that is, they were not aware of the Four Noble Truths. Therefore, the anicca-nature was unknown to them, and they maintained nicca sanna.

————————————–

There is still a contradiction in your description of the first stage of Ānāpānasati or to become a Sotapanna. See #2 in First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’:

• The first phase involves “seeing the anicca (unfruitful) nature of attaching to the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya to attain the Sotapanna stage. This step is only mentioned briefly in “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).” We will discuss this first stage in detail in this post. 
• In this stage, one focuses on the whole pañcupādānakkhandha kāya and how it is initiated. One must ‘see with wisdom’ that each time the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya is initiated, one’s mind moves away from Nibbāna. This is easily in the charts that we will discuss below.
• Ānāpāna is āna āpāna.In this stage, ‘āna‘ is to “take in/comprehend that the world (pañcupādānakkhandha) is fruitless or of anicca nature“, and ‘āpāna‘ is to “discard the wrong view that the pañcupādānakkhandha is beneficial or of nicca nature.”

vs. your reply above:

2. Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost. 

• That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
• Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).

–> I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.

[Lal]

Regarding Tobias’s first objection: The following is a more complete version that I wrote:

Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object

1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.

• Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.

Tobias wrote in response to that: “This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities?”

• The ‘anicca nature’ cannot be ‘seen with wisdom’ until what I summarized in my whole comment (previous post) is understood. At least that is my understanding;  of course, one should make one’s own decision.
• If you look at the suttas in the Tipitaka, there is no direct explanation of what is meant by ‘anicca nature.’ P.S. There were no scientific studies those days to show that our perceptions do not portray the actual reality. But now we do: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.” People took Buddha’s word purely on faith and because the teachings as a whole aligned with that worldview.
• Before I understood the implications of the ‘kama sanna,’ I also described the ‘anicca nature’ in terms of what Tobias described. Those descriptions hold, but I think the deeper explanation is the ‘kama sanna.’
• Note that avijja is triggered with any sensory input, even when looking at the blue sky or green grass without any cravings. A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!

The second part of the above comment from Tobias: “Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?”

• The Buddha taught that the perception of a puthujjana is 100% distorted. I have discussed that in many posts. And the scientists agree, too: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.”
• That is why I wrote the following above: A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!

________________

Tobias’s second observation: “I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.”

• I have discussed the fact that it may not be necessary to fully understand the role of ‘kama sanna‘ to attain the Sotapanna stage. This is a tricky issue. One may be able to understand it on one’s own. But one must have been exposed to it at least in previous lives. That is what I tried to explain in the following extract from the post “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview“:

Kāma Saññā Triggers Attachment via Rāga, Dosa, Moha/Avijjā

3. I just wanted to point out that what I summarized above in #2 is the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ that one must understand to become a Sotāpanna.

• However, some are able to see that without going through such a specific analysis. In the days of the Buddha, millions of people attained the Sotāpanna stage by listening to a couple of discourses. They had fulfilled their ‘pāramitā‘ in previous lives and only needed a ‘little nudge.’ 
• Attaining the Sotāpanna stage in the present day requires a real effort. On the positive side, we are also lucky to live in a time when modern science has just confirmed Buddha’s worldview. 

• This reply was modified 1 day ago by Lal.
• This reply was modified 1 day ago by Lal.

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

Thank you, Lal! I agree with what you say. Understanding kama-sanna is an addition that helps to establish anicca-sanna.

If Sanna is fundamentally 100% distorted and even an Arahant is constantly plagued by kamasanna, how can one become aware of the true nature? If we contact the world with our five senses, it will always fool us. People could also take the view that everything is illusion or simulation (natthi ayaṃ loko), so it doesn’t matter whether they purify their mind or not. Ultimately, the only remaining possibility is to develop wisdom and to realize the fruitlessness of existence (anatta).

[Lal]

You are welcome, Tobias!

One more thing to clarify.

An Arahant is NEVER plagued by (fooled by) kama sanna.  They are fully aware of the ‘true nature,’ and that is how they have attained Arahantship.

1. Let me go through the steps of mind contamination triggered by the ‘kama sanna.’ Let us consider a specific case of tasting honey.

• Anyone born with a human body (including Arahants) automatically gets the ‘kama sanna.’ Thus, the Arahant gets the ‘honey sanna.‘ That means he recognizes he is tasting honey. However, only a slight liking (manāpa) arises in his mind. Since his mind has fully comprehended the ‘true nature’ of that sanna, his mind does not attach to it, and does not start a Paticca Samuppada cycle with “avijja paccaya sankhara.’ 
• That is exactly what happens in the case of an Anagami, too. That first step of ‘avijja generation’ is triggered by ‘kama raga samyojana.’ Since an Anagami or an Arahant has eliminated kama raga samyojana, their minds are automatically prevented from attaching to any sensory input in the ‘kama loka.’
• Now, consider a Sotapanna tasting honey. His mind would also first generate the ‘honey sanna.‘ Since he has not eliminated the kama raga samyojana, his mind WILL attach to the ‘honey sanna,‘ i.e., attach to the taste of honey.’  With that attachment, the mind will also expand the initial slight liking (manāpa) to a bit more intense ‘sense of pleasure.’ However, since he has eliminated the three ditthi samyojana, the mind will not be fully contaminated, and the ‘sense of pleasure’ does not increase beyond a certain point. Thus, he attaches only with ‘kama raga.‘
• Finally, a puthujjana‘s mind would be fully contaminated. Since he still has even the three ditthi samyojana, he attaches with ‘wrong views’ in addition to attaching with ‘kama raga‘. That will also increase the ‘sense of pleasure’ felt. Thus, a puthujjana would experience the ‘maximum taste of honey.’

2. This is why ‘kama sanna‘ plays the key role of ‘triggering the initial attachment’ with avijja. 

• A puthujjana born with a human body will ALWAYS attach to any sense input in the ‘kama loka.’ That initial attachment is determined ONLY by whether the kama raga samyojana is present.
• Since anyone below the Anagami stage (puthujjana, Sotapanna, Sakadagami) has not eliminated kama raga samyojana, their minds would ALWAYS go through the first attachment. 
• The subsequent further contamination is maximum for a puthujjana, less for a Sotapanna, and even less for a Sakadagami.
• The ‘sense of mind-made pleasure’ also decreases from a puthujjana to a Sotapanna to a Sakadagami.
• P.S. Note that those steps in the attachment will happen within a split second within the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. If the mind gets to the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, one would engage in further actions (over longer times) to ‘enhance that initial mind-made pleasure’ generated in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. 
• An Arahant or an Anagami would not attach with avijja, and they would not have any additional ‘mind-made pleasure’ beyond the initial slight liking (manāpa). P.S. Their minds do not even enter the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
• This was explained in “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.”

________________

I hope there will be more questions from others also, if any of this is not clear. Only questions can lead to clarifications. 

• This reply was modified 1 day ago by Lal.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Tobias G

[Christian]

Tobias G wrote:

Thank you, Lal! I agree with what you say. Understanding kama-sanna is an addition that helps to establish anicca-sanna.

If Sanna is fundamentally 100% distorted and even an Arahant is constantly plagued by kamasanna, how can one become aware of the true nature? If we contact the world with our five senses, it will always fool us. People could also take the view that everything is illusion or simulation (natthi ayaṃ loko), so it doesn’t matter whether they purify their mind or not. Ultimately, the only remaining possibility is to develop wisdom and to realize the fruitlessness of existence (anatta).

An ignorant mind has a lot of blind spots that can be shaken off by a variety of “shock value” insights. For example, if you have color red, one person will like it/love it, another will hate it, and another will not care. If the color red would be objectivly “red” and had a quality outside your perception, it would affect everyone evenly. You need to look for proper pointers that will create “gaps” in the sansaric mind, so one can see Nibbana

1 user thanked author for this post.

Tobias G

[DhammaSponge]

If I might independently add…

I think what I have been looking for this entire time is an exhaustive explanation of the first step of Ānāpānasati. 

My rudimentary understanding is before moha can be tackled, raga and dosa must be addressed first through asubha/downsides and metta, respectively. THEN moha can be examined via cultivation of Tilakhana. 

If I am to be quite frank, I find this practice to be quite tough for me, as I keep falling into traps of raga especially. I try to shape my environment the best I can to make myself less reactive to such triggers, but I keep falling for them like a sucker. 

So perhaps my understanding of how I might apply this is quite limited, as I am not getting real positive feedback on this. 

I hope this informs Lal on what exactly to write when the time comes. Much metta and merits for his patience. 

[Lal]

DhammaSponge wrote: “My rudimentary understanding is before moha can be tackled, raga and dosa must be addressed first through asubha/downsides and metta, respectively. THEN moha can be examined via cultivation of Tilakhana.”

1. Yes. One can look at how to follow Buddha’s teachings in different ways. I think it depends on each person. I don’t know where each person is at. The following makes sense in general:

(i) If one does not believe in kamma/kamma vipaka and rebirth, then it would be impossible to follow Buddha’s teachings. Of all ‘wrong views’ that view (Buddha called it ‘uccheda ditthi‘) is the worst.

(ii) The rest of the people (except those at or above the Sotapanna stage) have the opposite view of ‘sassata ditthi.’ Most of them belong to the major religions of today (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, and Hinduism). Almost all Buddhists (who have not attained a magga phala) also belong to this category.

(iii) So, the first check is to see whether one belongs to category (i) above. If so, it would still be possible to learn morality and such basics from Buddha’s teachings, but not anything deeper.

(iv) If one has attained a magga phala (at least a Sotapanna Anugami), then it will be impossible for them to ‘turn back.’ The Buddha stated that they will attain the Sotapanna stage before they die (i.e., within this lifetime) and thus, they can attain the rest of magga phala even on their own. The difficulty could be in making sure one has reached that stage.

(v). If one has attained the Anagami stage, then that can be verified easily. One should be totally immune to any sensual thoughts arising. For example, one should be able to watch an adult or X-rated movie without generating any sexual thoughts. 

2. Now, let us consider those in category (ii). They are the ones who can comprehend Buddha’s deeper teachings and attain a magga phala.

• It is true that learning Buddha’s teachings would be easier if one lived a simple life and did not indulge in sensual pleasures, and are ‘good-natured’ or did not regularly generate vile thoughts about others.
• The next step is to learn the correct Dhamma from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha, i.e., one who has attained magga phala. Since the Buddha is no longer with us, each person has to decide whom to learn from. 

3. My thoughts on Dhamma and how one should approach learning are as follows, per the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118): 

• One needs to understand how raga, dosa, or avijja arises in the mind. The other religions or philosophies do not address this issue at all. Furthermore, the Buddha (in his deeper teachings) taught that the trigger for thoughts of raga, dosa, or avijja to arise in a mind is the ‘kama sanna.’ This is summarized in “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’,” and I have written posts mostly focused on explaining that in the past three years. I have pulled most of those posts into the section: “Buddha Dhamma.” That ‘worldview of the Buddha’ has never been known to the world unless taught by a Buddha. 
• If one understands that worldview, one would discard all other views and attain the Sotapanna stage. That is what is stated in the first stage of the Ānāpānasati Sutta. That is in the post “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.
• Therefore, it is essential to understand the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ before one can permanently remove the possibility of thoughts of raga and dosa (or avijja/moha) arising in the mind.
• That is what I will focus on, since most readers are not yet at the Sotapanna stage.
• As the Buddha stated, once one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, one can get to higher magga phala on one’s own. A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna or the second stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi free of the kāma saññā to cultivate higher magga phala. See “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview.” Therefore, those at the Sotapanna stage can use the framework discussed in the first stage of Ānāpānasati to attain higher magga phala by cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna.
• The bottom line: One must understand the ‘previously unheard deeper teachings of the Buddha’ to attain any magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage. That means understanding how kama sanna triggers avijja in the mind!

[DhammaSponge]

Thank you Lal for your reply. 

So to go with that very last point: 

• The bottom line: One must understand the ‘previously unheard deeper teachings of the Buddha’ to attain any magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage. That means understanding how kama sanna triggers avija in the mind!

I think what would be helpful for me is to have a formalized, systematic way of doing this. 

If I was to take what you say and make it into something like that, I would think, “note the input, recognize the sanna, realize it causes avijja, note its unreliability.” 

Perhaps whatever post you will write to thoroughly describe the first stage of Ānāpānasati will be better to my satisfaction and will fit my individual needs better. Again, thank you for your helpful comments. 

[Lal]

DhammaSponge wrote: “If I was to take what you say and make it into something like that, I would think, “note the input, recognize the sanna, realize it causes avijja, note its unreliability.” 

• That sounds like you plan to control your thoughts willfully.
• However, that would not be much different from what ancient yogis like Alara Kalama tried.
• First, one must understand the mechanism of kamma generation. It happens in two stages: (i) ‘purana kamma‘ stage or ‘initial kamma generation process.’ (ii) Only the second stage of ‘nava kamma‘ generation that happens willfully (with kaya, vaci, and mano kamma) is controllable. That is what is key to ‘understanding Buddha’s worldview.’
• Of course, one must try to control the second stage at all times. However, until one stops the automatic arising of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, elimination of the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ is not possible. That happens in two stages: First, one understands the details of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, i.e., how attachment to the ‘kama sanna‘ automatically moves the mind to the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. With that understanding, one first removes the three ditthi samyojana and attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that can one eliminate the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ and attain the Anagami stage to stop any sensual/angry thoughts from arising. I explained that in my previous comments on this thread.
• You can start with the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
• Also, you may want to read this thread from the beginning again, carefully.
• After that, you can start reading posts in the section: “Buddha Dhamma.” If you start taking notes, that will be very helpful. There are many different, but related concepts to learn. As I have emphasized, learning concepts plays a key role in getting to the Sotapanna stage. Formal meditation begins when one becomes a Sotapanna and cultivates Satipatthana to attain the Sakadagami/Anagami stages.
• I am not saying this can be done quickly by reading a few posts; it will take a real effort. 

[Lal]

Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta

The following is my translation of the “Dukkhadhamma Sutta (SN 35.244).” The link has the Pāli version and the English translation at Sutta Central. 

• This short sutta is helpful in clarifying why sensual pleasures (kāma assāda) are not only illusions but also are dangerous. Because based on such ‘mind-made kāma assāda,’ people engage in immoral deeds and are reborn in the apāyās.
• That is why a Noble Person would avoid sensual pleasures in the same way that they would avoid being thrown into a pit of glowing coals. Both lead to unimaginable suffering.
• I have avoided being so direct, but it seems the message would not be understood unless stated in direct terms, without any ambiguity. This short sutta delivers that message.

________________

“Bhikkus, when a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of suffering (Noble Truth of Suffering), then they have seen sensual pleasures in such a way that they will have no underlying tendency to seek sensual pleasures.

And they have awakened to a way of conduct and a way of living such that, when they live in that way, immoral qualities of greed (abhijjhā) and displeasure (domanassa) do not arise and overwhelm them. 

And how would a Bhikkhu truly understand the origin and stopping of all things that lead to suffering?

‘They understand the true nature of rupa, the origin of rupa, and the stopping of the arising of rupa in the mind. They understand the true nature of vedanā …saññā …saṅkhārā …viññāṇa, the origin of viññāṇa, and the stopping of the arising of viññāṇa.’

(Note that rupa does not refer to ‘external rupa‘ that exists in the external world, but those that arise in the mind when one experiences an external rupa. There is a critical distinction. Any external rupa does not have color, taste, smell, etc. Only a ‘mind-made rupa‘ has those additional ‘made-up qualities.’ See “Colors Are Mind-Made (Due to Kāma Saññā).”)

That’s how a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of the arising of all things that lead to suffering. 

And how has a Bhikkhu seen sensual pleasures (kāma or kāma assāda) in such a way that they have no underlying tendency for craving sensual pleasures?

Suppose there was a pit of glowing coals deeper than a man’s height, filled with red-hot glowing coals. Then a person would come along who wants to live and does not want to die, who wants to be happy and wants to avoid pain. Suppose two strong men would grab each arm of that man and drag him towards the pit of glowing coals. He will struggle to be freed from them and will want to run away from the pit of glowing coals. For that person knows, ‘If I fall in that pit of glowing coals, that will result in deadly pain and death.’

In the same way, when a Bhikkhu has seen that sensual pleasures are like a pit of glowing coals, they have no desire to seek sensual pleasures.

And how would a Bhikkhu who has understood that live his life?

Suppose a person were to enter a forest full of thorns. He would have thorns before him and behind him, to his left and right, below and above. So he would proceed very slowly and mindfully, avoiding being scraped by those thorns.

Whatever in the world that seems nice and pleasant (giving rise to mind-made pleasures) is called a thorn in the training of the Noble Ones. Understanding that sensual pleasures are like thorns, they should make an effort to avoid them. (This is ‘indriya saṁvara‘ in Buddha’s teachings.)

And how is someone unrestrained, i.e., does not have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?

Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they dislike it. (They do  not understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They let their minds run away, as it keeps generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’ 

That is because they do not understand how that kāma saññā was triggered, and how it automatically forced the mind to attach to it. They do not understand the true nature of such mind-made pleasures (tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti).

(This triggering of kāma saññā with any sensory input only generates a ‘slight liking’ or ‘manāpa‘ initially. The intense feeling of ‘joy’ a puthujjana may experience is totally mind-made. An Arahant would only feel that initial ‘slight liking.’ Thus, kāma assāda in a puthujjana is fully mind-made. It is critical to understand that: “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.” )

Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind. A puthujjana without ‘indriya saṁvara‘ would attach to all those, thinking those are ‘real pleasures.’

This is how a puthujjana does not have  ‘indriya saṁvara.‘ 

And how would someone have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?

Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they do not hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they do not dislike it. (They do understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They DO NOT let their minds run away, to keep generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’ 

Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind.

This is how a Noble Person (one with a magga phala) would have  ‘indriya saṁvara.‘ 

However, while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in this way, it is possible that immoral thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They establish mindfulness without delay and quickly eliminate those undesired thoughts.

How fast they must get rid of such thoughts can be indicated by the following analogy. Suppose there was an iron cauldron that had been heated all day, and a person let two or three drops of water fall onto it. Those water drops quickly dry up and evaporate. 

In the same way, perhaps while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in indriya saṁvara, unskillful thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They quickly give up and get rid of such thoughts.

This is how a Bhikkhu has awakened to indriya saṁvara, do not let sensory distractions overwhelm them. (Note: This is how a Sotapanna cultivates Satipaṭṭhāna. Once it is completed, they attain Arahanthood. After that, an Arahant‘s mind automatically stops any attachment to any sensory input.)

While that Bhikkhu conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way, others (like their relatives or family) would try to entice them back to the ‘householder life’, saying, “Come, return to the householder life, enjoy wealth!’

But it is quite impossible for a Bhikkhu who conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way to resign the training and return to a lesser householder life.

That can be explained with the following analogy. Suppose that, although the Ganges river flows to the east, a large crowd were to come along with spades and other tools, saying: ‘We’ll make this Ganges river flow to the west!’

What do you think, Bhikkhus? Would they still succeed?”

“No, Bhante.

Why is that?

The Ganges river flows to the east. It is not easy to make it flow westward. That large crowd will eventually get frustrated and give up that effort.”

“In the same way, that Bhikkhu conducts himself in this way and stays away from sensual pleasures only because he has understood that they are devoid of any value and are mind-made illusions.’ It is impossible to reverse that understanding.

So it’s impossible for them to return to a lesser, householder life.”

[Author]

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