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Hello Lal,
In the Thilakuna series (Ep05 on Dukkha, Ep06 on Anatta), Ven. Waharaka Thero says the three anupassanā are three entry points rather than a sequence. All three must be seen for magga phala, but one of them carries the other two, and which one leads depends on the practitioner. He grounds this in the three esa maggo visuddhiyā verses, each of which the Buddha calls a path to purification on its own.
His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.
Pure Dhamma runs the other ordering. In “Attato Samanupassati and the Sotapanna Stage” you write that understanding the anicca nature leads to comprehending the dukkha and anatta nature. In “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – According to Some Key Suttā” anicca is the key to the First Noble Truth, and the site’s treatment of dukkha and anatta builds on it.
My question is what kind of claim that ordering is.
If anicca-first describes how comprehension has to develop, then Thero’s Pannādhika route is a description of temperament and not of sequence, and the anatta material still has to be read downstream of anicca.
If anicca-first is your default presentation rather than a necessary order, then the site already contains an anattānupassanā route: “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?”, “Dasa Akusala and Anatta – The Critical Link”, “Anatta – No Refuge in This World”, the Anattalakkhana Sutta posts, and the attato samanupassati material. In that case, can those be taken as a starting point in their own right, with anicca and dukkha arrived at from them, and is there an order among them you would recommend?
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Hello Jaro,
1. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
2. Another point is mentioned in #13 of “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” To quote from there:
- It is only with the complete cessation of avijjā (at the Arahant stage) that one fully comprehends that all sensory experiences are mind-made. That is when one fully comprehends the ‘anatta‘ nature.
- For example, the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage when the Buddha described the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)” in detail over several days. However, they attained the Arahant stage by listening to the Buddha’s explanation of ‘anatta nature’ in the “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).”
3. Can you post the links to those two desanas you mentioned? I can take a look.
- Or you can email me the links: [email protected]
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Here are the passages:
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world)
“The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realise the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala) all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one.
The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā.
The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge, (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā.
The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”The same episode continues straight into the Sotāpanna fetters:
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering)
“the effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyse and understand one by one. There is another person; Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence lessness).”
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
Thilakuna Ep01 (the three verses, and the dependence order)
Thero states the same chain you cite:
“‘O lord, the ear is Anicca too. If something is Anicca, then is it sorrowful (Dukka).’ ‘If something is Anicca, sorrowful (Dukka) and ever changing to unwelcomed state (Viparinama) it is Anathta.'”
And then:
“That is to understand Buddha Dhamma, one must understanding Anicca or Dukka or Anaththa.
‘Sabbe Sankara Aniccathi. Yada Pagngnaya Passathi. Atha Nibbindathi Dukke. Esa maggo Visuddiya.’ This is one of the paths to Nibbana. …
Similarly, ‘Sabbe sankara Dukkathi. Yada Pagngnaya passathi. Atta Nibindathi Dukke. Esa Maggo Visuddiya.’ This is a path to Nibbana. …
There is another. ‘Sabbe Dhamma Anaththathi. Yada Pagngnaya passathi. Atta Nibindathi Dukke. Esa Maggo Visuddiya.’ … This too is a path to Nibbana.”Sooryalokaya Ep05 (What Kind of a Person is Sōvan Path-follower)
“There is a thing called Indriya Nānathvaya (the diversity in five mental elements); Shraddhā Indriya, Vīriya Indriya, Sati Indriya, Samādi Indriya. Pagnā Indriya. As a basis of continuous existence of a being, those who have the wisdom to understand Dhamma or qualified to understand Dhamma possess these five elements (Indriyas) in different levels.”
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
Links (You posted these on the forum in September 2020)
- Thilakuna Ep05, World and its real suffering: https://youtu.be/G8MLkEyGRNs
- Thilakuna Ep06, Deceptive view of the world: https://youtu.be/uE-Uqk4b7vo
- Sooryalokaya, What Kind of a Person is Sōvan Path-follower: https://youtu.be/hC7Aao-4VB4
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OK. I will take a look at them after posting the weekly post, either today or tomorrow.
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OK. I did not get to listen to all three. I listened to a part of Thilakuna Ep06. At the beginning of the desana, Thero mentioned that he extracted some concepts from the Tipitaka Commentaries. Also, I don’t know whether the translator translated Thero’s words correctly.
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Let us look at each one.
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world): “The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realize the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala), all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one. The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā. The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā. The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”
- I believe that is incorrect, according to the suttas, as I pointed out above.
- P.S. In particular, the statement, “The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā” does not make sense with the order of understanding: anicca, dukkha, anatta. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
- This is correct.
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering): “The effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyze and understand one by one. There is another person: the Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence-lessness).”
- This is also fine, since it says ‘attaining Nibbāna‘ and does not refer to a specific magga phala.
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence-lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
- I do not agree, per my previous reasoning. Now, I don’t know whether the Thero said these things in the desana. I have seen this issue before. The person doing the captions in English may not be correctly translating Waharaka Thero’s words/meanings.
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
- Correct. Of course, if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
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I think the other comments are OK, since the statements are vague. The following final one is not correct (again, it could be an issue with the translator):
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
- Understanding happens in the order of anicca, dukkha, anatta, per my Sutta references above. Of course, one may understand all three within a short time, like in the case of Ven. Bahiya.
I am open to discussing this further if the Sutta Pitaka provides evidence to contradict my statements. I no longer fully accept the explanations in the Commentaries (as I argued above), even though some are good and useful.
- I saw the same problem with the ‘Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada‘ that Waharaka Thero adopted from the Commentaries. See “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It.”
- The bottom line is that we must always give priority to the Sutta Piṭaka.
P.S. I removed the following from my first comment above in this post, since it may cause confusion.
- Here is another set of confirming suttas on miccha dithi, sakkaya ditthi, and attanuditthi. Attanuditthi is eliminated at the Arahant stage, when avijja is eliminated from the mind: “Micchādiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.165)“, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)“, and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.167)“. I have not discussed attanuditthi in a post. It is about eliminating ‘asmi mana‘ at the Arahant stage. The last three samyojana of asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja are removed at the Arahant stage.
- I think it is better to discuss those three suttas in a separate post.
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Forgive me for diverting the topic…
if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
I 100% agree with above, and that is how I know that I am not sotapanna, because I don’t understand anattha at all. But at the same time, its hard for me to differentiate between anicca and dukkha. I understand it as, anicca itself is dukkha or anicca is problematic only because it is dukkha and dukkha exists only because of anicca. If there is no anicca, there won’t be dukkha. Anatta is something I cannot comprehend at all.
Also, sir lal, I read this sutta just now: AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta. Out of those 10 perceptions 1st one talks about anicca and 2nd one talks about anatta, I think. 8th perception talks about dukkha, I think. Off course translation is not perfectly correct. So sir does this sutta says otherwise, against the sequence you said: anicca-> dukkha-> anatta as the sequence of magga-phala realisation?
Also is this sutta irrelevant to this discussion, since it talks about these 10 perceptions in the context of only – as after hearing them mendicant Girimānanda will be free from his illness. I am referring this sutta only because I found that it distinctly talks about 1st, 2nd and 3rd approach. I believed earlier as there are those 3 different ways/sequences for realization but end in same final result, but I see that you said, the sequence is always this anicca-> dukkha-> anatta, so I think my understanding holds no more. Can you clarify please?1 user thanked author for this post.
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In his first comment on this thread, Jaro wrote:
“His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.”
1. I started thinking about the possible connection between that statement and what I wrote at the end of last week’s post, “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” In #17, I wrote the following.
- In ‘rūpaṁ attato samanupassati,‘ ‘attato‘ means ‘as real (atta)’ and ‘samanupassati’ (‘sama’ ‘anu’ ‘passati’, where ‘passati’ means ‘to see’). Thus, it means ‘to see/believe’ that any rūpa we experience is real, i.e., that they are the same as those in the external world.
- If we literally take ‘anatta‘ to mean that ‘the world presented to us by our own minds is a falsehood’, then the above quote from Jaro makes sense. As we know, ‘atta‘ has several meanings, and it is one of them (the truth).
- If one with wisdom (Pannādhika in Jaro’s quote) can see that about our sensory experience, then of course, anicca and dukkha are the natural outcomes!
2. So, why did the Buddha not present it that way in the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15)”? It clearly states the following.
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @marker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
3. It is quite possible that the reason is the following. With the confirmation by modern science (in recent years) that our sensory experiences do not reflect the actual reality of them (i.e., our sensory experiences are mirages), that is exactly what ‘anatta nature’ means.
- One meaning of ‘atta‘ is ‘the truth’. The opposite, or untruth, is ‘na atta‘ or ‘anatta‘.
- So, it is possible that even at the time of the Buddha, those with penetrating wisdom could see the ‘ anatta nature ‘ directly, without first seeing the anicca or dukkha.
- But, for the majority at that time, the ‘seeing process’ probably started with ‘seeing the anicca nature’ first.
4. Saurabh’s comment on AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta is good, too.
- Of course, in that sutta also anicca is mentioned before anatta.
- I need to think a bit more, but I think the point is to see the fruitlessness and dangers of attaching to sensory experiences; anyway, one can. I agree that it is fine to first see the ‘anatta nature’ (which has been facilitated by modern science). In fact, in retrospect, that is what I literally pointed to with the post “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.”
5. By the way, that ‘correct seeing’, or Samma Ditthi, is only the first step. Attaining Arahanthood means eliminating ditthi, tanha, and mana. See “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi.” So, ‘seeing the anatta nature’ is a first step at the Sotapanna stage. It is fully established in the mind at the Arahant stage. See “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).” However, the first step of ‘seeing the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature’ of sensory experiences, or Samma Ditthi, happens at the Sotapanna stage.
- Then, one must follow the Noble Eightfold Path to eliminate tanha and asmi mana to attain the higher magga phala. Attaining the Sotapanna stage eliminates the three ditthi samyojana. Removing kama raga (and patigha) samyojana eliminates the first part of tanha at the Anagami stage. At the Arahant stage, complete elimination of tanha occurs with the removal of rupa raga and arupa raga samyojana. At the Arahant stage, ‘mana‘ (or ‘asmi mana samyojana‘) is also removed, along with uddacca and avijja samyojana.
6. In conclusion, Jaro’s comment at the beginning of the thread was excellent.
- So, the Tipitaka Commentary, in this case, seems to be valid. We should all further consider other related material in the Tipitaka to be certain.
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I have tried to find further evidence to support my claim.
SN 35.1 Ajjhattānicca, in full
Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ. Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ; yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā. Yadanattā taṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.
SN 22.15 runs identically over the khandhas: Vedanā aniccā yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama, neso ‘hamasmi, na me so attā”ti.
The key findings
SN 35.2 Ajjhattadukkha starts from the middle term with no anicca premise: Mano dukkho, yaṁ dukkhaṁ, tadanattā, yadanattā taṁ netaṁ mama, neso’hamasmi, na meso attā.
SN 35.3 Ajjhattānatta starts from the third term with no premises at all: Cakakhuṁ bhikkhave anattā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama, neso’hamasmi, na meso attāti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.
The Khandhasaṁyutta carries the same triad at SN 22.15 to 22.17, with SN 22.16 entering at dukkha: Saññā dukkhā yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanantā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama neso ‘hamasmi, na me so attā”ti.
Any one of the three terms serves as an entry point on its own, and each reaches netaṁ mama by itself. The three are not stages of a derivation where the second must be earned from the first.
Sāriputtas analysis from the Paṭisambhidāmagga gives the three terms with their sense-glosses in a single co-ordinate string: Rūpaṁ (vedanā, saññā, saṅkhārā, viññāṇa) atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ aniccaṁ khayaṭṭhena dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena anattā asārakaṭṭhenāti.
Three predicates of rūpa, in parallel, each with -aṭṭhena, “in the sense of”. Anicca in the sense of destruction. Dukkha in the sense of danger. Anattā in the sense of essencelessness. No yad…taṁ at all, so no sequence and no derivation.
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