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Thank you for the insight, Jaro. I had a rudimentary understanding of pleasure being a release of self created vexation, but I have never heard of the idea formulated in such a way. This is very helpful.
Thank you, Saurabh, for your comment.
May be I should formulate a question as follows: If our thoughts, speech, and actions are based on ‘false assumptions about the world,’ can that approach ever lead to a satisfactory outcome?
- Is there anyone who does not believe the following statement? All living beings (except Noble Persons) have false assumptions about the world. One false assumption is to believe there are colorful things in the world; another would be to believe there are tasty foods, and so on.
- I hope more people will make their thoughts known. I promise to take every comment seriously. I have come to realize that I used to take many things as ‘obvious,’ which may not be obvious to others.
I’m sure everybody in this forum would at the very least say, “Yes. I intellectually understand that the sannas responsible for the cravings I hold are mental interpretations of an experience completely prepackaged and not commensurate with reality.”
Less people, but still a good amount, will append to that, “However, despite me employing this knowledge and Dhamma, despite the fact that I in real time am doing my best to recognize that this sanna is false, that this experience is simply something that my mind is laminating over to try to make it to my satisfaction, I keep giving in and falling for it.”
People with their own addiction problems and especially with those with issues like executive function problems (I myself have ADHD) like me find it extremely tough to lean on this sort of inquiry alone without using supportive techniques, like shaping ones environment to minimize one’s susceptibility to such trappings and weaknesses, and even that does not make it guaranteed to work all the time.
I apologize if me being a bit more personal in writing this is inappropriate, but I hope it gives you a better idea where some people are coming from.
DhammaSponge wrote: “If I was to take what you say and make it into something like that, I would think, “note the input, recognize the sanna, realize it causes avijja, note its unreliability.”
- That sounds like you plan to control your thoughts willfully.
- However, that would not be much different from what ancient yogis like Alara Kalama tried.
- First, one must understand the mechanism of kamma generation. It happens in two stages: (i) ‘purana kamma‘ stage or ‘initial kamma generation process.’ (ii) Only the second stage of ‘nava kamma‘ generation that happens willfully (with kaya, vaci, and mano kamma) is controllable. That is what is key to ‘understanding Buddha’s worldview.’
- Of course, one must try to control the second stage at all times. However, until one stops the automatic arising of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, elimination of the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ is not possible. That happens in two stages: First, one understands the details of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, i.e., how attachment to the ‘kama sanna‘ automatically moves the mind to the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. With that understanding, one first removes the three ditthi samyojana and attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that can one eliminate the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ and attain the Anagami stage to stop any sensual/angry thoughts from arising. I explained that in my previous comments on this thread.
- You can start with the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Also, you may want to read this thread from the beginning again, carefully.
- After that, you can start reading posts in the section: “Buddha Dhamma.” If you start taking notes, that will be very helpful. There are many different, but related concepts to learn. As I have emphasized, learning concepts plays a key role in getting to the Sotapanna stage. Formal meditation begins when one becomes a Sotapanna and cultivates Satipatthana to attain the Sakadagami/Anagami stages.
- I am not saying this can be done quickly by reading a few posts; it will take a real effort.
Yes, I have noticed countless times how purana kamma operates before it becomes nava kamma and thus noticeable. I have also constantly appended to that, “so this is anatta- this entire process of ‘I notice object, I investigate object, I want object’ was never in your control in the first place.” I have also been repeatedly thinking, “the reason you attach to this is that, even though you intellectually understand that such qualities to which you attach are made in your mind and not the object, you still haven’t grasped it yet. Moha and avijja is still present.”
I honestly have a hard time keeping such observations fresh and they feel kind of ritualistic in a certain way, because it doesn’t feel like I’m really getting anywhere with this.
Thank you Lal for your reply.
So to go with that very last point:
- The bottom line: One must understand the ‘previously unheard deeper teachings of the Buddha’ to attain any magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage. That means understanding how kama sanna triggers avija in the mind!
I think what would be helpful for me is to have a formalized, systematic way of doing this.
If I was to take what you say and make it into something like that, I would think, “note the input, recognize the sanna, realize it causes avijja, note its unreliability.”
Perhaps whatever post you will write to thoroughly describe the first stage of Ānāpānasati will be better to my satisfaction and will fit my individual needs better. Again, thank you for your helpful comments.
If I might independently add…
I think what I have been looking for this entire time is an exhaustive explanation of the first step of Ānāpānasati.
My rudimentary understanding is before moha can be tackled, raga and dosa must be addressed first through asubha/downsides and metta, respectively. THEN moha can be examined via cultivation of Tilakhana.
If I am to be quite frank, I find this practice to be quite tough for me, as I keep falling into traps of raga especially. I try to shape my environment the best I can to make myself less reactive to such triggers, but I keep falling for them like a sucker.
So perhaps my understanding of how I might apply this is quite limited, as I am not getting real positive feedback on this.
I hope this informs Lal on what exactly to write when the time comes. Much metta and merits for his patience.
I would also appreciate another look at the background, Lal. So far, I have mostly been working on cultivating the anicca saññā, i.e., noting when the mind leans towards something as a way of trying to get lasting security from a universe that ultimately has none.
I really am not sure what would be the nail in the coffin for getting to Sotapanna in this case..
I would also like to double on Lang’s point, since it is still quite hard for my sila to adjust in accordance to my understanding of sanna, to not mention getting to a phala.
For example: I still have trouble eating healthy sometimes, even though I tell myself that the taste is not in the object. This is something I intellectually understand, but clearly don’t grasp or comprehend. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be a repeat recipient of the Fell for It Again Award, given personally by vinnana himself. :D
I would imagine not all saññā are exclusive to a physical body. In gandhabba form the mind still craves sights, sounds, and some smells, but as the mind wishes to continue separating, three (or maybe two and a half) senses aren’t enough. Instead of one way of experiencing an object, it craves three so it can continue separating good objects from bad objects. The saññā derived from the qualia of touch or taste (aka the sweetness as a mind interpretation of sense contact) is necessary for this separation.
If there was a way for the mind to get a body with ten senses in the same way as our normal five, it would definitely take that.
It’s a shame most of these videos in Sinhala don’t have English translations… Hopefully the English versions will get to the deeper aspects of Dhamma in a few more years.
Oh yeah, Tilakkhana contemplation has definitely helped with my outlook on life. I was very bummed out when I essentially had the rug pulled under my feet from my last place of work, but I found it very hard to be angry towards the people involved. I experience patigha every now and then, but it kept coming back to me, “What do I have to gain being angry towards this person? When has adding more lobha or more dosa to my experience made me more happy? The people who wronged me were just as helpless as I was before I was exposed to Dhamma. Actually, who wronged me? Who was I that was wronged? They did lots of work to get this part of the universe shaped to their liking, is it really worth it on my part?”
It’s curious seeing how the undercurrent of ignorance under lobha and dosa is always some variant of trying to get something to work to my liking. I still have these schizophrenic greed fantasies of getting to play a Paganini caprice after five or ten more years of dedicated practice, knowing well this runs under the assumption that the six sense bases are of nicca nature.
I also find it interesting how many monks whose dhamma talks I listen to also used to be STEM heavy before they took up the robe. There’s one who did postdoc work after his biochemistry Ph.D (pretty much my field) and then realized that he could do a lifetime research fellowship of studying the mind without needing a grant or equipment. :3
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1:54:53
“The essence of today’s talk is this: this is not you. None of this is you. That’s why if you say ‘I have a habit that I can’t come out of or break,’ well… yeah, because it’s not you who has the habit to come out of or break. Because it’s not you who picked it up. Habits are simply patterns of vipaka.”
I misremembered the exact word then, a “pattern” would probably have a bit of a different connotation than “collection.”
You can also try interleaving with content outside of this website, especially desanas where you listen to what’s being said rather than simply read.
This Zoom series is given by a monk very closely related to Waharaka Thero- it teaches you the core parts of Dhamma but ALSO what to meditate on.
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My impression is that karmasthana was the chanting of Pali phrases from suttas while understanding their general meaning to ward off kilesas. So I would have to understand at least the gist of what is being chanted, which is why I’m asking what text is being used to recite these things.
