[Tobias G]

See the post Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation

#9 says: “Anyone born with a physical human body will automatically get the “distorted saññā.” Thus, the “rupa” that comes to mind does not accurately represent the external rupa. Therefore, even an Arahant/Anāgāmi would taste sugar to be sweet. This is not a “superficial trick” by a third-rate magician but a “sophisticated trick” that can be uncovered only by a Buddha. A human body is designed (by kammic influence) to provide that “attractive saññā” because those born humans had craved them in past lives. …”

—-

A gandhabba outside the physical body still craves for kama and will also attach to e.g. gandha rupa if he/she sees another person smoking. On the other hand, a gandhabba without kamaraga would not be reborn in kamaloka either, because the samyojana is missing. Of course, with a physical body, it is easy to make contact with the five external rupa, but a gandhabba can also see and hear (and smell) without a body. Thus, purana and nava kamma should also be generated. Why is a physical body necessary for distorted sanna and hence kamma generation? 

 

 

[DhammaSponge]

I would imagine not all saññā are exclusive to a physical body. In gandhabba form the mind still craves sights, sounds, and some smells, but as the mind wishes to continue separating, three (or maybe two and a half) senses aren’t enough. Instead of one way of experiencing an object, it craves three so it can continue separating good objects from bad objects. The saññā derived from the qualia of touch or taste (aka the sweetness as a mind interpretation of sense contact) is necessary for this separation.

If there was a way for the mind to get a body with ten senses in the same way as our normal five, it would definitely take that. 

[Lal]

Tobias asked: “Why is a physical body necessary for distorted sanna and hence kamma generation?”

• A human gandhabba is the essence of a human. It has ‘distorted saññā‘ (i.e., kāma saññā).
• It is just that it cannot fulfil its desires for tastes, smells, and touches since it does not have a physical body.
• Since it does not have a physical body, it cannot engage in killing, stealing, or sexual misconduct. But even though it cannot speak out, it can still generate vaci kamma with vaci saṅkhāra. See #7 of “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra.” Even though it is unable to do the three types of kamma with the physical body, a gandhabba still generates the urge to engage in them, i.e., generate vaci saṅkhāra. Thus, it probably lives a frustrated life.
• Therefore, it can still generate kammic energies through vaci saṅkhāra and mano saṅkhāra. It is just unable to carry out some of the wishes.

I hope the above answers questions in DammaSponge’s mind. If not, feel free to ask any remaining questions.

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

I’ve been thinking about why the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process begins with avijjā, and this is the idea I’ve come up with:

Avijjā is the root cause and the highest saṁyojana for our journey through samsara. Furthermore, the purana kamma stage begins with attachment to the altered rupa (bahiddha viññāṇa) for every being below the Arahant stage because of the presence of saṁyojana (at least avijjā saṁyojana).

Both Arahants and puthujjanas experience kama sanna, or distorted perception. But the PS process begins only when there are remaining fetters. Therefore, avijjā is the minimum requirement for the start of Paṭicca Samuppāda. And the PS process applies to all sentient beings in samsara.

Ultimately, of course, all parts of Paṭicca Samuppāda cease to arise once Arahantship is attained.

[Lal]

Yes. That is correct. 

1. However, there should be a slight adjustment to the following paragraph: “Both Arahants and puthujjanas experience kāma saññā, or distorted perception. But the PS process begins only when there are remaining fetters. Therefore, avijjā is the minimum requirement for the start of Paṭicca Samuppāda. And the PS process applies to all sentient beings in samsara.”

It can be re-stated as follows: “Both Arahants and puthujjanas experience kāma saññā, or distorted perception. But the PS process begins only when there are remaining fetters relevant to the loka one is in. The PS process for the three lokās is triggered by the corresponding ‘rāga saṁyojana,’ i.e., kāma rāga saṁyojana for the kāma loka, rupa rāga saṁyojana for the rupa loka, and arupa rāga saṁyojana for the arupa loka.   

• For example, even an anariya arupa loka Brahma would have all three types of ‘rāga saṁyojana.‘ However, as long as he is an anariya arupa loka Brahma, avijjā can be triggered only with the arupa rāga saṁyojana.
• In another example, the Paṭicca Samuppāda process for an anariya human without jhāna can be triggered only via the kāma rāga saṁyojana.  However, if that anariya human cultivates an anariya jhāna, avijjā cannot be triggered in him via the kāma rāga saṁyojana, but only with the rupa rāga saṁyojana, while he is in a jhāna.

____

2. The main point is that having root causes (represented by the three types of saṁyojana in the case above) is not enough to trigger avijjā or initiate a PS process. The relevant conditions must be there too. That is why avijjā cannot be triggered in any Brahma via the kāma rāga saṁyojana as long as they remain in a Brahma realm.

• Of course, if the root causes are not there, then a PS process cannot be triggered by any condition. That holds for an Arahant.

_________

3. The critical impact of the above discussion is the following. Even if one has all ten saṁyojana intact, generating avijjā requires the triggering of one of the three ‘rāga saṁyojana‘ via one of the three main types of saññā: kāma saññā, rupa loka saññā, or arupa loka saññā.

• That is because a ‘thought process’ or, more correctly, a ‘citta vithi‘ starts at the ‘kāma dhātu,’ rupa dhātu,’ or ‘arupa dhātu‘ stage. 
• Consider a human for whom the above process starts at the ‘kāma dhātu‘ stage. If the ‘kāma saññā‘ were not automatically triggered, there would be no condition to cause avijjā and start a PS process.
• For further details, see “What Does ‘Paccayā’ Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?,” “Mind ‘Starts’ at the Kāma Dhātu Stage With Kāma Saññā,” and “Critical Role of Saññā in Mind Contamination.”

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

How is the Paṭicca Samuppāda process (especially Idappaccayatā) to be connected with the Abhidhamma sequence of a sensory input?

Specifically: The pasāda rūpa receive the information from the external world and pass it to the hadaya vatthu (generating a hadaya rūpa = vibration of the hadaya vatthu lasting 17 citta). The mind receives the information.

Question: Is the nāmarūpa in Paṭicca Samuppāda (at viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa) the first mind-made rūpa of this sensory event — or does an internal mind-made rūpa (with kāma saññā) already exist beforehand, to which the mind then reacts with avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra, thereby generating bahiddha viññāṇa?

In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ — is the rūpe here already the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, or does that arise only afterward?

I do not see this sequence clearly explained. Could you briefly clarify the order?

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jennydo

[Lal]

I wrote a draft post that may answer your questions: “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It“.  It is in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles” section.

• Please read it and ask further questions about unclear aspects. I can expand that post.
• The ‘viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa‘ step happens at the Saṁpaṭiccana citta in a citta vithi.
• However, the first version of the ‘mind-made rupa‘ happens inside the first citta: Pañcadvāravajjana citta. If the mind attaches to it, then the citta vithi starts, and the mind moves to the second citta: Cakkhu viññāna.
• That mind-made version keeps ‘intensifying’ at each citta, even though it started with the first citta. It is a very fast process that we cannot see; only a Buddha can see that. 

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jennydo, Tobias G

[Tobias G]

Thank you for the clarification that viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa occurs at the Sampaṭicchana citta. I am still having difficulty mapping the early stages (kāma dhātu, bahiddha viññāṇa, and ajjhatta viññāṇa) onto both the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence and the citta vīthi. Could you clarify the following:

1. At which citta in the citta vīthi does the mind move from the kāma dhātu stage (with the initial mind-made rūpa and distorted kāma saññā) into the bahiddha viññāṇa stage? Does this happen already in the Pañcadvāravajjana citta, or only with the Cakkhu viññāṇa citta?
2. In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, where do the bahiddha viññāṇa and ajjhatta viññāṇa stages correspond?
   • Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?
   • Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?
3. Since viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa takes place at the Sampaṭicchana citta, does that mean the bahiddha viññāṇa stage is completed by that point, while the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage (with saḷāyatana) begins at or after the Sampaṭicchana citta (e.g., during santīraṇa)?
4. In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, is the rūpe the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, and has the mind already left the kāma dhātu stage by this point?

5. Does the same sequence apply when dhammā come directly to the mind-door (mano dvāra)? (kāma dhātu → bahiddha viññāṇa → ajjhatta viññāṇa)

These points would help connect the citta vīthi, the early Paṭicca Samuppāda steps, and the bahiddha / ajjhatta description.

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jennydo

[Lal]

OK. Let me go through the process carefully to make sure. I will post a reply later today. 

[cubibobi]

I’d like to tag onto this question if I may, since I am also interested in how a citta vithi maps to the PS cycle, and I wonder if the following makes sense:

Per the chart in the post

Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation

… we have:  upādāna → bhava → jāti   <–>   7 javana citta

If that is so, then working backward, we have:

vottapana <–> taṇhā
santīraṇa <–> vedana

… and we also know:

saṁpaṭiccana  <–> viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa (Per Lal’s answer in #59028)

 

So we’re “missing” salayatana and phassa, but I suppose the mapping is in a general sense only, not an exact 1-1 mapping.

Thank you.

Lang

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jennydo

[Lal]

Let me address Tobias’ questions in order.

1. At which citta in the citta vīthi does the mind move from the kāma dhātu stage (with the initial mind-made rūpa and distorted kāma saññā) into the bahiddha viññāṇa stage? Does this happen already in the Pañcadvāravajjana citta, or only with the Cakkhu viññāṇa citta?

• In the first citta in the citta vithi (Pañcadvāravajjana citta), only the ‘mind-made rupa‘ generated via ‘kāma saññā‘ is experienced. Even an Arahant experiences it. That is essentially the kāma dhātu stage.
• The mind of a puthujjana is first defiled with the bahiddha viññāṇa, with saṅkappa arising in the mind. It is then further defiled with more saṅkappa, and the ajhhatta viññāṇa arises. Both of these happen within the second citta in the citta vithi, i.e., ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘. This is the same as the conclusion of the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS.
• The mind of the Arahant stays in the kāma dhātu stage.

_________

2. In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, where do the bahiddha viññāṇa and ajjhatta viññāṇa stages correspond?

• Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?
• Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?

Answer: In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘ (these saṅkhāra are saṅkappa) initiates the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa‘ (with more saṅkappa) leads to the ajjhatta viññāṇa.

• So, the answer to the question: “a. Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?” is no.

Regarding the question: “b. Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?”

• Saḷāyatana means the involvement of all six āyatana.
• For example, in a visual event, cakkhu āyatana (cakkhāyatana) is born first in the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa‘ in PS (and in the second citta of cakkhu viññāṇa in the citta vithi version).
• The other five āyatana start getting involved at the ‘nāmarupa paccayā saḷāyatana‘ step in PS (and in the third citta of Sampaṭicchana in the citta vithi version).
• Therefore, the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa is complete with the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step.

______

3. Since viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa takes place at the Sampaṭicchana citta, does that mean the bahiddha viññāṇa stage is completed by that point, while the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage (with saḷāyatana) begins at or after the Sampaṭicchana citta (e.g., during santīraṇa)?

• Bahiddha viññāṇa is completed early in the cakkhu viññāṇa citta, the second citta in the citta vithi (alternatively, within the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).

________

4. In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, is the rūpe the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, and has the mind already left the kāma dhātu stage by this point?

• The ‘cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ’ (which appears in some suttas) is complete by the cakkhu viññāṇa citta, the second citta in the citta vithi (alternatively, within the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).

_______

5. Does the same sequence apply when dhammā come directly to the mind-door (mano dvāra)? (kāma dhātu → bahiddha viññāṇa → ajjhatta viññāṇa)

• Yes.

________

Please feel free to ask further questions. I can incorporate those in finalizing the draft post on “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It” in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles” section.

______

P.S. Note that ‘nāmarupa formation’ starts at the first step of bahiddha viññāṇa generation. However, with each step, ‘nāmarupa‘ gets stronger. 

• It becomes significantly stronger with the generation of ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ ) after the arising of cakkhu viññāṇa (in the second second citta in the citta vithi or the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).
• At that point, the mind scans past experiences and adds ‘more features’ to the ‘mind-made rupa‘. 
• That ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ also depends on one’s mindset at that specific moment. For example, if one is in a party atmosphere or under the influence of alcohol/drugs, a ‘stronger nāmarupa‘ may arise, strengthening ‘kāma guna‘ (the enticing aspects the mind attaches to the object). See “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā)“.

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jennydo, Tobias G

[Lal]

I made errors in my comment posted on October 27, 2026, at 2:00 pm. I just deleted it. The following is the corrected version.

_____

Sorry. I just saw Lang’s (cubibobi) comment.

Let me summarize what I wrote in response to Tobias’ questions to clarify the time sequences in the two approaches (citta vithi and PS):

The following discussion is on the first citta vithi generated in the mind upon receiving an ‘enticing sensory input’.

Pañcadvāravajjana citta: kāma dhātu stage (PS has no term; PS has not started yet)

Cakkhu Viññāṇa: bahiddha and ajjhatta viññāṇa complete (PS: ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘ and ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna’ steps complete) 

Sampaṭicchana: ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ leading to generating ‘kāma guna‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘) leads to generating (samphassa-ja) vēdanā (PS: ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’, ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana’, ‘salāyatana paccayā (sam)phassō’, ‘(sam)phassa paccayā (samphassa-ja) vēdanā’ steps complete)

Vottapana: PS: ‘(samphassa-ja) vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’, ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna’. 

Javana Citta (7):  This is where kammic energies are generated, and the mind grasps bhava and jati in real time (part of that kammic energy will be reserved to generate future bhava and jati). However, the kammic energy generated in the very first citta vithi (that we are discussing now) is negligibly small. There will be millions/billions more citta vithi once the mind attaches to the first citta vithi.

As I will explain that last part in upcoming posts.

The last item in a citta vithi:

Tadārammana (2): That ‘temporary jāti‘ generates a ‘temporary bhavaṅga‘ (B_T) and fuels the next citta vithi (This takes place within the PS cycles; there can be billions of PS cycles operating above; each subsequent cycle is stronger than the previous one). This may not be easy to understand at first. 

• Note that in the very first citta vithi, only weak sankappa are generated in the ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra’ step. 
• The subsequent citta vithis, saṅkhāra in ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘, are potent/strong sankhara done with kaya, vaci, and mano kamma, i.e., dasa akusala). 

To emphasize: 

The above discussion is on the first citta vithi generated in the mind upon receiving an ‘enticing sensory input’. That citta vithi goes through the mind in a billionth of a second. There will be millions/billions more citta vithi as the mind examines the sensory input and keeps attaching to it. Furthermore, subsequent citta vithi can also lead to speech and physical action. 

____

My apologies for the confusion. 

Also, as I mentioned previously, not all those details are necessary to attain the Sotapanna stage, in case the above analysis scares some off, especially those unfamiliar with citta vithi in Abhidhamma. But it could help those familiar with Abhidhamma.

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jennydo, Tobias G, Saurabh@2110

[Lal]

I am considering a slightly different approach. I wonder whether it would be good to discuss how thoughts (citta, pronounced ‘chiththa’) arise in the gandhabba or manomaya kaya. That can reveal some insights.

1. When the gandhabba is trapped inside the physical body, it cannot receive sensory inputs directly. For example, to see an apple on a table, first the following process must take place: (i) Light reflected from the apple must enter the eye, (ii) The tiny sensory receptors in the eye detect that reflected light and those signals propagate to the brain, where they are processed into a form that can be understood by the ‘hadaya vatthu‘ (‘seat of the mind’) located in the gandhabba. 

• Now, the brain is in the head, and the gandhabba is trapped in the lower body area close to the physical heart. 
• Thus, the brain sends that signal to the gandhabba via a pulse of electromagnetic (EM) radiation; in Pali, these are called ‘kirana‘. Scientists have observed such EM pulses.
• Therefore, there is a time delay (of the order of 10 milliseconds or about a hundredth of a second) before the signal reaches the gandhabba.

2. On the other hand, suppose the gandhabba of a second person has come out of the physical body and is also in the same room.

• That gandhabba can see the apple directly. There are no physical eyes or brains in the gandhabba. The ‘cakkhu pasada rupa‘ associated with the ‘hadaya vatthu‘ can see directly by itself. Note that it can see the ‘red color’ of the apple without having physical sensors.
• Thus, the gandhabba of the second person actually sees the apple even more clearly. The signal did not have to go through intermediate steps of the eyes and brain. 
• By the way, there are four more pasada rupa that process sounds, smells, tastes, and body touches. Thus, altogether there are five pasada rupa around the hadaya vatthu of the gandhabba. However, when the gandhabba is out of the physical body, only the ‘cakkhu pasada rupa‘ and ‘sota pasada pasada rupa‘ associated with sensing sight and sound are operational (together with the hadaya vatthu). The physical body is needed to generate the signal associated with taste, smell, and touch. 
• Another point is that the gandhabba, consisting of the hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa, is smaller than an atom in modern science. Thus, it can move at nearly the speed of light. This is how the Buddha visited Deva or Brahma loka located far above the Earth ‘within the time taken for stretching an arm,’ as described in the suttas. That gandhabba can go through walls, too, as has been confirmed by people who have had ‘out-of-body experiences’. 

3. The above description may help clarify the following ‘out-of-body experience’ discussed in #6 of “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind“. Please feel free to ask questions.

The following video describes a heart surgeon’s experience. He is not a Buddhist (and is very likely not even aware of Buddha’s teachings), but he is convinced of his experience.

The woman in the above video temporarily lost brain function, similar to other NDE accounts.

1. In most cases, the patient is unaware of the external world until the brain recovers. However, in this case, the patient’s gandhabba left her body, allowing her to see without the aid of her physical body.
2. The woman’s gandhabba may have come out of the paralyzed body at some point. It was in the room when Dr. Greyson (see Ref. 2 below) came and followed him to the other room, where her friend was. The gandhabba (‘mental body’) of the woman watched and listened to the conversation between her friend and Dr. Greyson.
3. Once medical treatment restored her brain function, she could recall the conversation and tell Dr. Greyson about it in great detail. She not only heard but also saw the full details. That is why she noticed the red stain on Dr. Greyson’s tie!
4. So, she was able to see (in color) with her gandhabba body. Can there be any doubts about that?
5. The gandhabba emerging from the physical body is not common.  However, Dr. Greyson mentioned (perhaps in another video) that approximately 10% of people have experienced such an OBE. It is more common among patients who undergo heart surgery because the hadaya vatthu in the mental body overlaps the heart in the physical body.

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[Tobias G]

1. You say Cakkhu Viññāṇa: bahiddha and ajjhatta viññāṇa complete (PS: ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘ and ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna’ steps complete). Thus cakkhu vinnana actually consists of two vinnanas (bahiddha and ajjhatta)?

2. In the sequence below, I cannot find the santirana citta mentioned. Where does it belong?

Sampaṭicchana: ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ leading to generating ‘kāma guna‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘) leads to generating (samphassa-ja) vēdanā (PS: ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’, ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana’, ‘salāyatana paccayā (sam)phassō’, ‘(sam)phassa paccayā (samphassa-ja) vēdanā’ steps complete)

Vottapana: PS: ‘(samphassa-ja) vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’, ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna’. 

3. How did you come up with these connections between PS, citta vitthi, and purana/nava kamma? Is this explained anywhere in the suttas? Or is that derived?

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jennydo

[Lal]

1. Yes. They are two types of viññāṇa. 

• In fact, two types of rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa are associated with the bahiddha and ajjhatta stages. 
• These are among the 11 types associated with each upādānakkhandha: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhu, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho. Yā kāci vedanā … yā kāci saññā …ye keci saṅkhārā … yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati viññāṇakkhandho.”
• See “Puṇṇama Sutta (SN 22.82)“.
• One must fully understand these to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna. In fact, ‘kaye kāya‘ in Kāye Kāyānupassanā refers to the ajjhatta kāya and bahiddha kāya. For example, ajjhatta kāya refers to the five components associated with the ajjhatta stage of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya. See “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna“.
• P.S. I just revised the post “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna“ to emphasize it.

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2. Yes. I missed the santirana citta. 

• It is the ‘(samphassa-ja) vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’ step that I included in the Vottapana citta.
• There, ‘tirana’ is the ‘decision’ that the vedana is worthwhile attaching to.

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3. It is by making connections among the material in various suttas and Abhidhamma. 

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jennydo, Tobias G

[Tobias G]

If there are two types of vinnana (ajjhattaṁ / bahiddhā), how can this happen in a single citta (CV)? Or does it require two citta vithi?

[Lal]

A citta is the fastest entity in the whole universe. Yet, many things can happen within a citta. It is quite amazing!

• Even more activity is indicated in the Sampaṭicchana citta. The following is the description I gave above.
• Sampaṭicchana: ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ leading to generating ‘kāma guna‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘) leads to generating (samphassa-ja) vēdanā (PS: ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’, ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana’, ‘salāyatana paccayā (sam)phassō’, ‘(sam)phassa paccayā (samphassa-ja) vēdanā’ steps complete).

The following is from #2 in “Cetasika (Mental Factors)“: Within a citta, seven cetasika are always present, and they undertake different functions: Phassa (contact);   vēdanā (feeling);  saññā (perception);  cētanā (assembles a citta with all relevant cetasika arising at the moment); Ekaggata (One-pointedness) can become Sammā Samādhi;  jivitindriya (life faculty);  manasikāra is a complex entity (could be yoniso manasikāra or ayoniso manasikāra; see #3 below.)

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Tobias G

[Tobias G]

1. Is cakkhu viññeyya rupa equal to nāmarūpa in PS?
2. Which of the PS-steps correspond to kāma guna?

[Lal]

1. Nāmarūpa formation begins with the first step of bahiddha viññāṇa, i.e., the first defiled citta of cakkhu viññāṇa.

• The ‘distorted saññā‘ first prepares a ‘distorted rupa‘ in the first citta of Pañcadvāravajjana.
• The mind starts adding ‘more features’ to that ‘mind-made rupa‘ based on one’s unbroken samyojana and also gati at that specific time; nāmarūpa keeps getting stronger at each step. The more features added, the stronger the interest (and attachment) becomes. 

2. The nāmarūpa formation is strongest in the ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’ step. That is when kāma guna comes into play. 

• There is also a going back and forth between ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’ and ‘nāmarūpa paccayā viññāna’, which makes nāmarūpa (and viññāna) growth even stronger. They support each other.
• That is explained in the “Naḷakalāpī Sutta (SN 12.67)“. An analogy is given @marker 7.4.

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P.S. Going back to Tobias’s first question (“Is cakkhu viññeyya rupa equal to nāmarūpa in PS?”).

• The ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa’ is the ‘enhanced nāmarūpa’ that is generated by cakkhu viññāna after incorporating kāma guna, as we can deduce from the above.
• Therefore, the answer is ‘YES’. 

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Tobias G

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