October 17, 2023 at 8:33 am #46441dosakkhayoParticipant
1.1“Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṁ kammānaṁ katānaṁ upacitānaṁ appaṭisaṁveditvā byantībhāvaṁ vadāmi.
1.2Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye.
1.3Na tvevāhaṁ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṁ kammānaṁ katānaṁ upacitānaṁ appaṭisaṁveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṁ vadāmi.
Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results,
and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion.
But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated.
However, I think that there can be an end of suffering even if one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated. So, I think that the translation has some errors. What is the correct meaning of that verse?
October 17, 2023 at 9:54 am #46443y notParticipant
There already is a thread on this sutta started by Johnny Lim on 17 March 2020.
October 17, 2023 at 10:21 am #46444
Thank you, y not.
- Yes. The thread is “AN 10.219 Karayakayasutta (The Body born o f Deeds).”
- The first verse (which is the critical one) appears in three consecutive suttas, AN 10.217 through AN 10.219.
In the link above, I translated ““Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi, tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṃ vadāmi.” as:
“Bhikkhus, as long as one does kamma without understanding “san” (how defilements are associated with their certain actions or “appaṭisaṃveditvā”), they will never be able to bring existence to an end (byantibhavama), either in this life, the next life or in any future life. Therefore, they will not be able to bring suffering to an end (dukkhassantakiriyaṃ).”
- Note that there is no mention of “vipāka” in that verse.
Please see the above link for details.
October 17, 2023 at 10:44 am #46445
October 17, 2023 at 1:16 pm #46448
Thanks, y not.
Here is the link to the other thread (where the same verse was discussed again) referred to by y not:
I have not read this thread yet. If there are questions on any of the above threads, feel free to ask questions or comment.
October 21, 2023 at 10:15 am #46545
1. It is critical to understand what is meant by “kamma nirodha.”
- The tendency is to assume that it is about nullifying accumulated kammic energies. However, the accumulated kammic energies cannot be removed (some of those energies are exhausted when they bring vipaka, and others gradually “wear away” with time which can be billions of years.)
- Any remaining kammic energy CAN come back to us as “kamma vipaka” whenever suitable CONDITIONS appear.
2. What we can do is to stop the CONDITIONS that can bring such “kamma vipaka.”
- For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people. However, when he attained the Sotapanna stage in front of the Buddha (whom he initially intended to kill, which is another potent kamma), he instantly nullified any accumulated “kamma vipaka” that could have landed him in an apaya. Then, within a month or so, he attained the Arahant stage and nullified ALL accumulated “kamma vipaka.”
- That shows the basic idea. It also shows the unimaginable benefits of attaining magga phala.
3. Kamma is defiled as one’s cetana (loosely interpreted as one’s intention), and kammic energies are created AT THAT MOMENT with one’s javana cittas. See “Details of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha.”
- Another point is that “kamma” is done with abhisankhara. Javana cittas arise when we engage in abhisankhara. See “Kamma and Saṅkhāra, Cetanā and Sañcetanā.”
- Such a kammic energy stays in “vinnana dhatu” until suitable CONDITIONS appear to bring back the fruits of that kamma as “kamma vipaka.”
- Those kammic energies are also called “dhammā.” See “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!” and “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories).”
4. The key point is that “kamma nirodha” happens only with magga phala. As higher magga phala attained, more and more possible kamma vipaka automatically become nullified.
- Even though an Arahant has nullified kamma vipaka that can bring rebirth, vipaka of some accumulated strong kammic energies can appear. That is because there is still one “condition” left to bring vipaka, and that is the physical body of the Arahant, which arose due to a kamma vipaka when that Arahant was born.
- At the death of the physical body of an Arahant, no accumulated kammic energies can bring a vipaka to lead to another rebirth in any realm. That is the end of rebirth and the end of even a trace of suffering.
October 22, 2023 at 1:39 am #46555dosakkhayoParticipant
Thank you for your reply. It helped me a lot!
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