Paṭha­ma­sañce­tani­ka Sutta (AN 10.217)

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    • #27533
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Johnny_Lim was unable to post the following comment, so he emailed it to me:

      As quoted from Volitional (1) (AN 10.217)

      “Mendicants, I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced. And that may be in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. And I don’t say that suffering is ended without experiencing intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated.”

      It seems like one has to fully experience the kammic consequences before making an end of suffering. If that is the case, how can one attain liberation? Did I understand the sutta wrongly?

      The pali version as follows…

      Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi. Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṃ vadāmi.”

    • #27534
      cubibobi
      Participant

      I am in no position to comment on this text; that’s above my pay grade. However, the notion that one has to fully experience kammic consequences before making an end of suffering has to be false.

      If that were the case, Angulimāla would never have attained arahanthood in his life. One of the themes at puredhamma.net here is that not everything is determined by kamma, and that by removing avijjā and taṇhā, one can bypass future kamma vipāka.

      Best,
      Lang

    • #27537
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following comment is from y not

      When I tried to add a link to his comment, the whole comment disappeared. But luckily I kept a copy of his comment. Thanks, y not!

      Cubibobi,

      Go to the discussion:
      AN 10.219 Karayakayasutta (The Body born of Deeds)“. The subject matter of the two suttas (and of the one i between) is the same.

      Metta

    • #27539
      y not
      Participant

      How about this, Lal? After submitting, I checked whether my post showed on the main Forums page.
      Only the participant’s (y not) name showed but not the post. Seconds later even that was gone !

      Thanks for helping out, as you ever do.

    • #27540
      Lal
      Keymaster

      This is related to the following verse in the Mahā­sati­paṭṭhā­na Sutta (DN 22):
      “..Sabba­kā­ya paṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabba­kā­ya paṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati,..”

      Compare that with the word appaṭisaṃveditvā in the verse from Johnny’s first post.
      – appaṭisaṃveditvā means “not paṭi­saṃ­vedī” or the concept of how “san” arises not grasped. In other words, Tilakkhana not grasped.

      Sabba ­kā­ya in the above verse means ajjhatta kāya and bahiddha kāya .

      The complete verse in the Mahā­sati­paṭṭhā­na Sutta is:

      eyyathāpi, bhikkhave, dakkho bhamakāro vā bhama­kāran­tevāsī vā dīghaṃ vā añchanto ‘dīghaṃ añchāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā añchanto ‘rassaṃ añchāmī’ti pajānāti; evameva kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā assasanto ‘rassaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā passasanto ‘rassaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti. ‘Sabba­kā­yapaṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabba­kā­yapaṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.”

      Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhat­ta­bahid­dhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati. Samuda­ya­dhammā­nu­passī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vaya­dham­mā­nu­passī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samuda­ya­va­ya­dham­mā­nu­passī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati. ‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭis­sati­mattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati. Evampi kho , bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.”

      It is good to carefully read the previous discussion that y not referred to.

    • #27561
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I just wanted to provide the correct translation for the passage quoted by Johnny at the first post on his thread:
      “Mendicants, I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced. And that may be in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. And I don’t say that suffering is ended without experiencing intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated.”

      The Pali verse is: “Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi. Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā duk­khas­san­takiri­yaṃ vadāmi.”

      Per my explanation above and in the link provided above, the correct translation is:

      “Bhikkhus, I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated would not bring their results if that person had not figured out why such deeds are immoral (that understanding would require comprehension of Tilakkhana). Those results may appear in the present life, in the next life, or in future life. And I don’t say that suffering will end if that person had not figured out why such deeds are immoral

      In other words, once one attains the Arahanthood ALL such kamma vipaka will end at the Parinibbana of that Arahant.
      – Some of the vipaka (especially apayagami vipaka) start losing their ability to bring vipaka from the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

    • #27563
      Lvalio
      Participant

      I was lost in this discussion, I was not understanding anything, but now with this last post of Lal, I came to understand the context very well. Exactly the Correct Dhamma (SathDamma!)
      Thank You very much Mr. Lal again. We are all in debt to you…
      May the blessings of Lord Buddha, Dhamma and Samgha be with all of you…
      Thank You Very Much, again…

    • #27564
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You are welcome, Lvalio!

      I just did not have time to put that together earlier. But I understood a bit more clarification was needed.
      – Anyway, don’t hesitate to ask questions. If I don’t know the answer, I will say so.

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