Dear Lal,
It is not “ingrained wrong views” to notice when a participant completely abandons the Sutta being discussed because it falsifies their definition.
Notice what just happened: I asked you how your phonetic system explains the severe physical pain the Ascetic Gotama felt when he stopped his assāsapassāse in the Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36). Instead of answering, you ignored the Sutta entirely, changed the subject to cosmology (Devas and Brahmas), and repeated a false premise that I had explicitly corrected in my very last message.
Let us resolve your “contradiction” immediately so we can return to the text:
1. The Strawman Returns You claim my core assumption is: “(iii) Without getting started with Kāyānupassanā (as defined above), one cannot attain any magga phala.”
Lal, please re-read point #1 of my previous message. I explicitly wrote: “Correction: This is factually incorrect, and it is not what I said… the Suttas are filled with individuals attaining the Sotapanna stage simply by hearing the Dhamma (paratoghosa)… Formal physical breath meditation is not the only starting point.“
You are manufacturing a contradiction by arguing against a position I explicitly denied holding just a few hours ago.
2. The Brahma / Deva “Contradiction” There is no contradiction; there is only context. The Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (MN 10) were explicitly addressed to human monks (Bhikkhus) who possess gross physical bodies, lungs, and physical breath. The Buddha gave them a meditation anchor suited to their human faculties.
When the Brahmas and Devas attended the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, how did they attain magga phala? They attained it precisely the way I described in my previous post: by listening to the Dhamma (paratoghosa), applying wise attention to the Four Noble Truths, and directly realizing Dhammānupassanā. They did not need to sit cross-legged and watch a physical breath they do not possess, because they used the mind and phenomena (Citta and Dhamma) as their anchor.
Claiming that assāsa-passāsa cannot mean physical breath for human monks because Brahmas don’t breathe is like claiming that the Buddha’s instruction to “walk mindfully” (gacchanto gacchāmīti pajānāti) cannot mean physical walking because Brahmas float. The Buddha teaches according to the specific faculties of the beings present.
3. The Unanswered Question (MN 36) Now that I have resolved your cosmological “contradiction” and reminded you that I never claimed breath is the only way to magga phala, you can no longer avoid the fatal flaw in your definition.
I will ask you again, directly, about the Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36):
When the Ascetic Gotama stopped his assāsapassāse (“mukhato ca nāsato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṃ” – “I stopped the in-breaths and the out-breaths through my mouth and nose”), the Sutta states it caused roaring winds in his head and terrible, agonizing physical pain.
If assāsa and passāsa mean subduing mental defilements or “taking in good / rejecting bad,” why did stopping them through his nose and mouth cause the Buddha extreme physical agony?
If you cannot explain this physical pain without contradicting the Tipitaka, your phonetic redefinition of assāsa-passāsa is objectively falsified. I look forward to your direct answer regarding MN 36.
With respect,
Nibbid83