“But Venerable Sir, are there gods?”
“Great king, why do you ask: ‘Venerable Sir, are there gods’?”
“Venerable Sir, I am asking whether the gods come back to this life or whether they do not.”
“Great king, those gods who are subject to affliction come back to this life, whereas those gods who are not afflicted do not come to this life.”
When this was said, General Vidūdabha said to the Buddha: “Venerable Sir, can those gods who are subject to affliction and who come back to this life, topple or banish from their place those gods who are not afflicted and who do not come back to this life?”
Then Venerable Ānanda thought: “This General Vidūdabha is the son of King Pasenadi of Kosala, and I am the son of the Blessed One. Now is the time for one son to talk to the other son.” So Venerable Ānanda turned to General Vidūdabha and said: “General, I will ask you a counter-question. Answer it as you see fit. What do you think, general? As far as the kingdom of King Pasenadi of Kosala extends, where he rules as the sovereign king, is he able to topple or banish any ascetic or Brahmin from that place regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether they follow the holy life or not?”
“Sir, as far as the kingdom of King Pasenadi of Kosala extends, where he rules as the sovereign king, he can topple or banish any ascetic or Brahmin from there regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether they follow the holy life or not.”
“What do you think, general? As far as the kingdom of King Pasenadi of Kosala does not extend, where he does not rule as the sovereign king, is he able to topple or banish any ascetic or Brahmin from that place regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether they follow the holy life or not?”
“Sir, as far as the kingdom of King Pasenadi of Kosala does not extend, where he does not rule as the sovereign king, he is not able to topple or banish any ascetic or brahmin from that place regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether they follow the holy life or not?”
“And what do you think general, have you heard of the gods of the Thirty-three?”
“Yes, Sir, I have heard of the gods of the Thirty-three. And King Pasenadi of Kosala has also heard of them.”
“General, what do you think? Can King Pasenadi of Kosala topple or banish the gods of the Thirty-three from there?”
“Sir, King Pasenadi of Kosala cannot even see the gods of the Thirty-three. So how can he ever topple them or banish them from there?”
“In the same way, general, those afflicted gods who come back to this life, cannot even see those gods who are not afflicted and who do not come back to this life. So how can they topple them or banish them from there?”
Now, Venerable Sir, are there Brahmas?”
“Great king, why do you ask: ‘Venerable Sir, are there Brahmas’?”
“Venerable Sir, I am asking whether the Brahmas come back to this life or whether they do not.”
“Great king, those Brahmas who are subject to affliction come back to this life, whereas those Brahmas who are not afflicted do not come to this life.”
- Here is a Sutta that supports what Sir Lal was saying in several posts and this post Ariya Jhāna and Anariya Jhāna – Main Differences. See the #5 and 6.
- In this Sutta, Lord Buddha told King Pasenadi that certain devas never return to the human world, while others do. It can be deduced that he was referring to the sakadagamins or sotāpannas who progress to Nibbāna in the deva worlds. He also made a distinction between the Brahmas – some return to this world, while others never do. This refers to the anagamis in the pure lands, but some sotāpannas and sakadagamins have cultivated the jhanas and will attain Nibbāna in the Rūpa loka.
- Here is the reference on Sutta Central Kaṇṇakatthalasutta.
“Ye te, mahārāja, devā sabyābajjhā te devā āgantāro itthattaṁ, ye te devā abyābajjhā te devā anāgantāro itthattan”ti.
“Yo so, mahārāja, brahmā sabyābajjho so brahmā āgantā itthattaṁ, yo so brahmā abyābajjho so brahmā anāgantā itthattan”ti.