[alvino96]

Hello Mr Lal and everyone in this forum,

I was reading this post “https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/myths-about-the-sotapanna-stage/”

And I find point #4 quite confusing:

One could be of any race or even religion and still be a jāti Sōtapanna (and even that person may not be aware of it).

A question came to my mind: How does it work? wouldn’t a jāti Sōtapanna find something is not Dhamma, and therefore won’t choose to follow it, let alone belive in it or preach it? Does it mean there could be a Christian jāti Sōtapanna or a Atheist jāti Sōtapanna somewehere?

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[Lal]

Your assumption is correct. A baby born into a family of a certain faith usually adopts that faith/religion; if it’s an atheist family, the baby is also likely to start off as an atheist.

• A jati Sotapanna will overcome that as they grow up. The attainment of the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana will never be lost.
• However, when I think about it, it seems unlikely that a Sotapanna could even be born into a non-Buddhist family. One’s gati plays a huge role in the conception process. Usually, the gati of the parents (especially the mother) must match that of the gandhabba (manomaya kaya) entering the womb. See “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception” and “Cloning and Gandhabba.”
• Even if such a ‘non-matching birth’ takes place for some other reason, they will never engage in an ‘apayagami deed’ or an immoral deed that can lead to rebirth in one of the four lowest realms (apayas). However, it is possible that they may not make progress on the Noble Path in that life. Yet, he is guaranteed to attain Arahanthood within seven bhava.

2 users thanked author for this post.

alvino96, Saurabh@2110

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

Usually, the gati of the parents (especially the mother) must match that of the gandhabba (manomaya kaya) entering the womb.

Hello Ven. Lal sir. Can you please tell me why the mother’s gati is especially more important? Does that mean it depends on the mother what kind of child is being conceived, in terms of jati sotapanna, ariya, or just puthujjana? And what role does the father’s gati play?
I always believed that mother’s gati plays more important role in what kind of gandhabba or manomaya kaya is entering the womb, but I never understood how and why.

1 user thanked author for this post.

alvino96

[Lal]

I explained that briefly in the two posts mentioned above:  “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception” and “Cloning and Gandhabba.”

• See especially #13 and #14 in the second post above. Please read those two posts carefully.
• Mother’s mental state at the moment of conception plays a key role in matching the gati of the gandhabba that can take possession of the zygote. 
• Note that the zygote was created even a few days before that, when the intercourse took place that created the zygote. 
• Thus, the ‘moment of conception’ (a gandhabba ‘taking possession of the zygote’ or ‘merging with the zygote’) could be any time from the time of intercourse to a few days after that. 

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[Saurabh@2110]

Thank you ven. Lal sir. I reread both the posts you mentioned.

[alvino96]

https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/how-the-meanings-got-lost-and-how-to-interpretate/ 

Thank you very much for the response Mr Lal🙏. Additionally, I still have a question:

Once the last Sotapanna on Earth dies, that is the end of the current Buddha Sasana. All the books of the Tipitaka will still be there, but there will be no one who can use the “keys” to explain the key concepts.

I was reading this part, and it got me thinking, this comes back to the discussion of “reading can get us to sotapanna” vs “we still need to hear from an ariya”. By creating this website to uncover the hidden meanings of suttas, does it create more sotapannas directly (and subsequently those ariyas spread the meaning further, liberating more people, or just ‘triggered’ the hidden sotapanna level on its readers?

Thank you🙏🙏🙏

[Lal]

Alvino’s comment is based on the following question: Can one attain the Sotapanna stage by reading? 

• The answer depends on “reading what?”
• It may not be possible to attain the Sotapanna stage by reading Tipitaka suttas. The suttas are highly summarized when it comes to foundational concepts. 
• For example, it would be impossible to understand the meaning of words like anicca and anatta just by reading the suttas. 
• Those concepts must be explained either via verbal discourses or detailed writings. I think either will work. 
• In the Buddha’s day, the second option wasn’t available because written texts didn’t exist and 99% of people had no education. 

[Saurabh@2110]

Ven. Lal sir, I read the latest post titled, “Is It Necessary for a Sotāpanna to Abstain from Sensual Pleasures?”, I felt piti while reading it. I did not understand it 100% but I understood what I understand and what I don’t, 100%. I want to comment on few quotes from that post, and possibly ask questions.

This quote: “It Is a Waste of Time for a Puthujjana to Try to Cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna
3. Many people waste their time trying to engage in Satipaṭṭhāna and Satta Bojjhaṅga (i.e., cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path) while still a puthujjana.”
and this quote about ‘Ekayano Maggo‘ Mentioned in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta: “Nowadays, puthujjanās believe they can engage in Vipassanā. For example, ‘Vipassanā sessions’ are conducted in most ‘meditation programs’ attended by puthujjanās.”
and this quote: “That refers only to a Sotāpanna and not to a puthujjana!”

I know such people, and they are very close to me. They are like trying to cut the strongest rope ever, using bluntest blade ever! I believe doing that is directly trying to realize ‘dukkha’, without understanding ‘anicca’. You will experience dukkha, but you won’t understand it is dukkha properly, so you will suffer until you realize anicca.

Having said that, this part: “The first step is to understand that sensual pleasures are devoid of value and excessive attachment to them leads to much suffering; this is also called understanding ‘yoniso manasikāra’ (or realizing our attachments are rooted in the perception that sensory experiences are real)”; I can relate to this part actually. I don’t exactly understand that they are unreal, but I confidently know that, whatever they are, that is not something happening outside, rather it is all happening inside mind. Outside is just projected reality because of internal causes. If I could stretch it, our entire personality as well as our conceived outside world, is also a internal projection at some level.

This quote: “If one sees any colors, including white light, that confirms it is definitely not an Ariya jhāna.”. I have actually experienced this more than once few years back, and I know it is just some phenomena, that really makes one believe that one is experiencing something extraordinary and of worth. In reality it is just distraction.

So, if there is a person, who believes he is doing vipassana (while trying to practice it daily, just as you mentioned about puthujjanas trying to practice vipassana) while not at all understanding yoniso manasikāra and on top of that, having wrong view of Uccheda Diṭṭhi at a confident level, does such a person, if he continues what he is doing, have any hope of doing any progress, even if it is very slow?

1 user thanked author for this post.

alvino96

[Lal]

I am glad to read your comment. It seems I am at least getting my message through to some.

1. It took me over fifteen years of daily contemplation to get to this point. But as the Buddha stated, his teachings are deeper than anyone can imagine. He said he only taught a fraction of what he realized!

• The main problem, as I see it, is that most people don’t know where to get started. Many meditation programs teach ‘Vipassana‘, but even the teachers are not even Sotapannas. 
• One must be a Sotapanna even to start cultivating Satipatthana, and that must be done before that Sotapanna can start engaging in Vipassana! Engaging in Vipassana is the same as cultivating Satta Bojjhanga.
• See “Is It Necessary for a Sotāpanna to Abstain from Sensual Pleasures?“

2. Those with uccheda ditthi can never make any real progress. As I have explained in recent posts, many scientists and philosophers know that sensory experiences are not real. However, they are trying to understand them without a rebirth process. For example, they think thoughts arise in the brain and try to figure out how the brain ‘developed’ to that stage to generate feelings and awareness. 

• However, some are beginning to realize  that the brain is not where our thoughts arise:

• In the video, she mentioned the famous case of ‘patient HM,’ who lost memories in a brain operation. I discussed that in “Patient H.M. – Different Roles of Brain in Memory“
• More relevant posts in “Brain and the Gandhabba“

3. Even though those with sassata ditthi are in a better position, they also cannot understand Paticca Samuppada as long as they believe in a permanent soul-type entity.  

• Paticca Samuppada says one extends the rebirth process each time one initiates a Paticca Samuppada process with the belief that experience (at that moment) is real. 
• This is why that process (and the rebirth process itself) can also be stopped within a short time. Venerable Bahiya stopped the rebirth process (i.e., became an Arahant) within an hour! Angulimala attained the Sotapanna stage within an hour after killing almost a thousand people. 

4. The systematic way to learn Buddha’s teachings is summarized at the beginning of the “Buddha Dhamma – Systematic” section. That section starts with the following:

The Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) provides a succinct roadmap to Nibbāna. The first stage of Ānāpānasati only involves embracing the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ (‘āna‘) and rejecting the ‘mundane worldviews’ (‘āpāna‘); see “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’,” “First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’” and “First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Verses in Ānāpānasati Sutta.” That enables one to attain the Sotāpanna stage.

• Then, the second stage of Ānāpānasati is to cultivate Cattārō Satipaṭṭhāna.
• That enables one to fulfill Satta Bojjhaṅga and the Noble Eightfold Path (ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko magga) in the third stage of Ānāpānasati. 
• The second and third stages of Ānāpānasati are discussed in “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview,” “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna,” and “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”

There, rejecting the ‘mundane worldviews’ (‘āpāna‘) is to reject the idea that sensory experiences are real. Embracing the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ (‘āna‘) is to realize that any feeling of ‘sukha‘ and ‘dukha‘ in sensory experiences are triggered by the ‘distorted sanna‘. 

• The best example of that is ‘rupa sanna‘ or the ‘distorted sight’. We see colorful objects, but no such objects exist in the world! In fact, even our ability to ‘see anything’ is generated via that ‘rupa sanna‘. See “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”
• The problem is not with ‘seeing’ but with attaching to the vedana (joyful or depressing/angry feelings) and engaging in immoral deeds. However, as long as one does not fully comprehend how those six types of ‘distorted sanna‘ (via the six senses) arise, engaging in such immoral deeds cannot be stopped with ‘willpower’. 

5. Understanding the kamma generation process is the first step, as mentioned in #4 above. 

• I encourage everyone to ask questions until any doubts are cleared. The teachings have been so badly distorted over thousands of years. 

3 users thanked author for this post.

jennydo, alvino96, Saurabh@2110

[alvino96]

• I want to add my own personal experience if I may; I just watched a desana by Venerable Handapangoda Nivathapa Thero: https://youtu.be/x0J8IC_13CQ?si=ju-bNZ5ThVQtuQNJ&t=5491  (we would need to watch the first minutes or so)

• I want to highlight this quote:

That’s called realization. Understanding and realization.

We first of all we understand after that we realize when you understand you become a Sotapanna; now you have a permission to meditate until that you don’t have a permission to meditate.

• I vividly remember coming accross this website in 2018-2019, I read the post on the real meaning of anicca, dukkha, anatta multiple times but can’t quite understand it, until I try my favorite way to learn a new concept: pretend we are teaching someone. Based on the meaning Mr Lal wrote, I created a few examples of how anicca creates dukkha to teach myself. One which I remember the most is:
  • Imagine we are holding a glass of the most delicious and precious milk in the world, we would feel very happy and satisfied, but there are so many ways it can go wrong (and out of our control), that could cause suffering.
  • If the milk has gone bad, then we ‘lost’ the milk — suffering arises;
  • If we drank the milk until its last drop, the moment we finish the milk, it is ‘lost’ — suffering arises;
  • If the milk got spilled on the ground, or got stolen by someone else, we would definitely felt the suffering as it arises;
  • Even if somehow we could prolong the lifespan of the milk by many, many years, suffering COULD still arrises;
  • We could suddenly got sick and or develop hormonal imbalance, which makes milk taste bad to our tongue (or lost the sense of taste altogether), or even develop a severe allergy to diary, see how the milk is “lost” to us?
  • Even if we could avoid all those scenarios, we could simply die the next minutes and didn’t get to enjoy the milk!
• I remember the moment I almost finished ‘teaching’ this example, I could feel a switch clicked in my mind (I don’t remember ever experiencing it before), it was so fast, it almost felt like nothing but still felt quite memorable split second moment to me; I am aware that claiming something not true is musavada and bad kamma, but I’m making an educated guess that it was possibly my ‘aha’ moment, or at least the start of Sotapanna Anugami moment.
  • I also ‘clicked’ with the concept of sanna when contemplating with myself during a meditation session, by giving myself examples of events, experiences and person I care about in my life.
• The point I want to share is, understanding is the very first thing to get to before engaging in many many hours of meditation.

[Lal]

‘Meditation’ can have two meanings:

1. Contemplation is a type of meditation. One must contemplate the Dhamma concepts one has learned. Venerable Kondanna (one of the five ascetics) attained the Sotāpanna stage while he was contemplating the concepts he learned from the Buddha.
2. However, in the Buddha Dhamma, ‘bhavanā‘ refers to Vipassanā, which can be done only in the Satipatthāna Bhumi (even a Sotāpanna must first cultivate Satipatthāna to enter the Satipatthāna Bhumi).

I discussed that in #3 of “Is It Necessary for a Sotāpanna to Abstain from Sensual Pleasures?“

3 users thanked author for this post.

jennydo, Saurabh@2110, alvino96

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

1. It took me over fifteen years of daily contemplation to get to this point. But as the Buddha stated, his teachings are deeper than anyone can imagine. He said he only taught a fraction of what he realized!

So basically, we cannot imagine/fathom what all lord buddha had realized.

Lal wrote:

The main problem, as I see it, is that most people don’t know where to get started. Many meditation programs teach ‘Vipassana‘, but even the teachers are not even Sotapannas. 
One must be a Sotapanna even to start cultivating Satipatthana, and that must be done before that Sotapanna can start engaging in Vipassana! Engaging in Vipassana is the same as cultivating Satta Bojjhanga.

I never seem to be able to disagree with you ven. Lal sir. That is really true. We have expert puthujjanas. But there is no solution for that, is there? I always believed that ariyas/noble beings are very rare, and it is also not easy to recognize them.

Lal wrote:

Paticca Samuppada says one extends the rebirth process each time one initiates a Paticca Samuppada process with the belief that experience (at that moment) is real. 
This is why that process (and the rebirth process itself) can also be stopped within a short time. Venerable Bahiya stopped the rebirth process (i.e., became an Arahant) within an hour! Angulimala attained the Sotapanna stage within an hour after killing almost a thousand people.

Wow, this is really thought provoking for me. So it is already happening, even now as I am typing this message or doing any of my work, the process of Paticca Samuppada process is ongoing, is that it? So the underlying cause which continues it is the hidden deeply integrated belief that the current experience is real!? Now that I am trying to understand it, it really makes sense how people like angulimala, even though being monstrous/dangerous killers, literally could see all this process once buddha guided them! This is really amazing. So the difference is only being able to witness/see it and being unable to. Feels like a cheat code for those who can see.

Lal wrote:

There, rejecting the ‘mundane worldviews’ (‘āpāna‘) is to reject the idea that sensory experiences are real. Embracing the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ (‘āna‘) is to realize that any feeling of ‘sukha‘ and ‘dukha‘ in sensory experiences are triggered by the ‘distorted sanna‘.

So both pleasant as well as unpleasant experiences are due to distorted sanna? My understanding is that all the unpleasant, unagreeable, unwanted things are manifestations of distorted sanna and all that is pleasant, agreeable, wanted, was also the manifestation of distorted sanna but only for anariyas. I also believe that ariyas see the secret or reality, and they know what is suffering and what is not; they know what is really pleasant, agreeable, wanted as compared to what puthujjana/anariya understand by pleasant, agreeable, wanted. They are not same.

So aanapanasati involves various levels and it is not just about discarding harmful and embracing beneficial things. Or it is maybe just deeper meaning of itself.

Lal wrote:

The best example of that is ‘rupa sanna‘ or the ‘distorted sight’. We see colorful objects, but no such objects exist in the world! In fact, even our ability to ‘see anything’ is generated via that ‘rupa sanna‘. See “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”

So, it seems to me, that only wisdom can exist in reality, everything else just takes birth and dies, again and again.

Lal wrote:

The problem is not with ‘seeing’ but with attaching to the vedana (joyful or depressing/angry feelings) and engaging in immoral deeds. However, as long as one does not fully comprehend how those six types of ‘distorted sanna‘ (via the six senses) arise, engaging in such immoral deeds cannot be stopped with ‘willpower’.

Yes, I understand this at some level. Willpower is overhyped. There are some things, which willpower can never even touch.

alvino96 wrote:

I vividly remember coming accross this website in 2018-2019, I read the post on the real meaning of anicca, dukkha, anatta multiple times but can’t quite understand it, until I try my favorite way to learn a new concept: pretend we are teaching someone.

Hello friend. That’s interesting way. Btw there are many other forums or websites about buddha’s teachings, but based on the discussions there from the members/admins there, it always felt to me that, what they are actually telling about buddha’s teachings, always had some dilution/distortion because of that person who is discussing that teaching. I never had any ‘aha’ experience that is worth talking but I read many suttas, translations, discussions and even took part in discussions. Almost every other platform just seemed to be talking/speaking through textbook knowledge only. I always believed that there is always a difference between one who is talking about buddha’s teaching (or any part of it) through textbook knowledge and the one who is talking about buddha’s teaching (or any part of it) through actual realization! But my experience changed once I came to this puredhamma.net website. This is just my opinion. So I am glad you found this platform.

2 users thanked author for this post.

jennydo, alvino96

[Lal]

Saurabh wrote: “So basically, we cannot imagine/fathom what all lord buddha had realized.”

• No. That is not what I meant. 
• The difficulty for me was to sort out the correct teachings of Buddha. These days, different people have different interpretations that have evolved (‘devolved’ is the better word) over the past two thousand years.
• It was Wharaka Thero who started the process of uncovering the correct teachings of the Buddha. Only a ‘jati Sotapanna‘ (who had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) can do that with the help of the Tipitaka books written over two thousand years ago. He would have uncovered more if he had not passed away in 2017. We should all be grateful to him, and also do our best to keep making progress.
• Once the interpretations become clear, it is easy to understand.

___________

Saurabh asked: “So both pleasant as well as unpleasant experiences are due to distorted sanna?”

• Yes. All sensory experiences are based on illusions.
• Thinking the sensory experiences are real, one attaches to ‘pleasurable feelings’ (sukha vedana) with kama raga. 
• Those sensory experiences that lead to ‘sorrow or anger’ (dukha vedana) are also illusions. They generate patigha. 
• Even those that lead to ‘neutral feelings’ (adukkhamasukha vedana) are also illusions. They generate at least avijja.  For example, when we see the blue sky or green grass, we accept that as ‘reality’, and that is avijja. The sky is not blue, and grass is not green. Those colors are mind-made. Of course, avijja is generated in both of the other two cases, too.
• This is the ‘previously unheard teachings of the Buddha’. 
• Modern science agrees, but it tries to explain the illusory nature of sensory experience as arising in the brain. See “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless“.

2 users thanked author for this post.

jennydo, Saurabh@2110

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

No. That is not what I meant. 
The difficulty for me was to sort out the correct teachings of Buddha. These days, different people have different interpretations that have evolved (‘devolved’ is the better word) over the past two thousand years.

yes yes, understood sir. Also I agree that ‘devolved’ is the better word.

Lal wrote:

It was Wharaka Thero who started the process of uncovering the correct teachings of the Buddha. Only a ‘jati Sotapanna‘ (who had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) can do that with the help of the Tipitaka books written over two thousand years ago. He would have uncovered more if he had not passed away in 2017. We should all be grateful to him, and also do our best to keep making progress.

I am also grateful to ven. waharaka thero then. 🙏🙏🙏

[Author]

Posts