April 18, 2022 at 7:53 am #37164Yash RSParticipant
My question is that if I have attained the Sotapanna stage of nibbana and I practice any Samatha meditation and attain any Anariya Jhana, will that become an Ariya Jhana (as I am an Ariya person)?
April 18, 2022 at 8:51 am #37168
If you had attained anariya jhana BEFORE becoming a Sotapanna, then it would be EASIER to convert that to an Ariya jhana.
But I don’t think it will AUTOMATICALLY turn into an Ariya jhana due to the following reasons.
1. Kama raga is only temporarily SUPPRESSED in the first anariya jhana. Thus, even though one with that WILL BE born in a lower Brahma realm upon death, that Brahma WILL come back to the human realm and could be born in an apaya in future lives. That is because kama raga anusaya remains intact in an anariya jhana.
2. One gets to the FIRST Ariya jhana by REMOVING kama raga, i.e.,kama raga anusaya is not there even in the FIRST Ariya jhana.
– Thus, if one gets to the First Ariya jhana one is essentially an Anagami.
April 18, 2022 at 12:06 pm #37170ChristianParticipant
If kama raga is removed why Anagami is not constantly in Ariya jhana?
April 18, 2022 at 1:02 pm #37171
Removal of kama raga is a REQUIREMENT for the Anagami stage.
– But the removal of kama raga is NOT SUFFICIENT to attain Ariya jhana or even anariya jhana. There could be Anagamis without the ability to get into any jhana.
Getting to jhana is something that requires a focused effort.
– Of course, some people who had cultivated jhana in the recent past lives can get into jhana without much effort. But those would be anariya jhana.
The easiest way to verify whether one has even the first Ariya jhana is to watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts (an X-rated movie would be a better confirmation).
April 19, 2022 at 7:13 am #37175
The following post is from Christian:
Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’
Handa dānāhaṁ tividhena samādhiṁ bhāvemī’ti.
I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.
So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ.
Can we get an explanation of “keeping it connected, without placing the mind…” etc?
April 19, 2022 at 7:15 am #37176
It could be a good idea to read the English translation of the whole sutta at Sutta Central. “Upakkilesa Sutta (MN 138)“. Even though the translation is not that good, one can get the background for the verses by the Buddha that Christian quoted. That quote comes at the very end of the sutta.
– In fact, the initial part of the sutta is not directly relevant for our discussion here.
– Start reading about 1/3 way into the sutta with the following “Then Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila came out to greet the Buddha…”
Here is a brief summary;
Some time into the conversation with Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila, the Buddha asks:
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends!
But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease? ”
This is better stated as “.. as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any jhana worthy of the noble ones (i.e., Ariya jhana)?
Ven. Anuruddha replies that they have attained jhana, but those are anariya jhana (i.e., they are unable to REMOVE kama raga, etc)
Then the Buddha tells them that while he was a Bodhisatta, he faced the same problem. Then he explains why.
For example, the following verses:
But before long my light and vision of forms vanished.
So kho pana me obhāso nacirasseva antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:
‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’
‘ko nu kho hetu ko paccayo yena me obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānan’ti?
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:
‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘vicikicchā kho me udapādi, vicikicchādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.
When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish.
Samādhimhi cute obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.
I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
Sohaṁ tathā karissāmi yathā me puna na vicikicchā uppajjissatī’ti.
Then the Buddha describes other reasons why the Bodhisatta could not get rid of those other types of defilements.
Then in the end he explains how he was finally able to REMOVE those defilements (not just suppress them). Those are the verses that Christian quoted.
Here is that verse:
“So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ. ”
– He got to the first jhana by cultivating savitakka/savicara.
– Second, third, fourth, and fifth jhana via “avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, ” avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ” and “upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ”
– Note that here the second jhana is divided into two. In most suttas, the second and third jhana in the above description are combined as the second jhana.
So, the point is that many people are able to attain jhana just by doing breath meditation. Some, like Ven. Anuruddha, who may have been trying to follow the instructions of the Buddha but had not yet comprehended Tilakkhana (i.e., the Four Noble Truths correctly) may get into anariya jhana.
– To correctly cultivate savitakka/savicara, one MUST have comprehended Tilakkhana.
– As you see, the “meat” is in that verse quoted by Christian. That needs to be explained in detail.
You can see how those correspond to the four jhanas in the post, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)”
– For example, #4 of that post describes getting into the second jhana as “removal of vitakka/vicāra”. In the above verse that is done via two steps (i.e., second jhana is divided into two jhana).
An introduction is at, “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction“
April 21, 2022 at 1:28 pm #37218Yash RSParticipant
Lal said “The easiest way to verify whether one has even the first Ariya jhana is to watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts (an X-rated movie would be a better confirmation).” So will he/she get “turned on” while watching such scenes but not crave to get that “turned on” feeling? Or will he/she get permanently rid of such feeling and cravings?
April 21, 2022 at 2:49 pm #37219
Yash asked: ” So will he/she get “turned on” while watching such scenes but not crave to get that “turned on” feeling? Or will he/she get permanently rid of such feeling and cravings?”
An Anagami would not be “turned on”. No sexual feelings will arise.
– Those are mind-made feelings (samphassa-ja-vedana).
You can read up on that in the following posts:
“Search Results for: samphassa vedana“
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