Understanding of Anicca

Pathfinder:“I agree that the opposite of icca is anicca, hence opposite of desire = not desired. However, icca itself did not have an aspect of time. Why are we adding this “long run” aspect to anicca, and where is the element of time stated in the line of “Yam pi iccam…”? Why not just see everything as undesireable in the first place without taking into account time?”

• There are many instances where one can fulfill one’s expectations in the short term. For example, suppose one wants to become wealthy by selling drugs. They can become successful and become rich. In some cases, they may even avoid getting caught until death. It seems that they got their desire fulfilled. However, they will pay for the damage done to ruin many lives in the future. So, being able to live a luxurious life for even 50 years will be minuscule if reborn as an animal or worse due to that immoral actions of selling drugs.
• The same applies to the next few verses quoted. Kamma vipaka may take time to materialize.

Pathfinder: “The first question was, “Bhikkhus: is any rūpaniccaor anicca?” or “Bhikkhus: can any rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction or cannot be kept to one’s satisfaction?”

Here, based on the earlier arguments, it does not have to be that rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction, but we can just interpret as “Bikkhus, are rupa liked or disliked in nature?” This will still be consisent with the rest of the sutta.”

• Yes. That is fine. Nothing in this world can be kept as one desires.

Regarding the last part of your comment:

• Yes. There are many ways to understand the meaning of anicca. Different (but still related) meanings “sink in” to the mind of different people.
• The bottom line is this: We engage in various actions, hoping they will lead to happiness in the long run. But nothing in this world can provide that. This idea can be tested at various time scales. It may seem to work in some or even many cases (you study for an examination and pass with the highest grades, for example), but in the long run (through the rebirth process), such “wins” do not make much difference. 
• Temptations (based on “distorted sanna“) are extremely powerful. We all have read about how “highly-moral people” can succumb to temptations and take bribes, steal, kill, rape, etc. One can try to live a moral life, but without grasping the “anicca nature” and becoming a Sotapanna, it would be impossible to avoid some temptations. 

This is how one can grasp the true nature of the Sansara 

Firstly, Everything in this universe is a manifestation of energy, the cars, the trees, the food, etc. all have atoms as the fundamental structure according to science. If we go deep,we get up to the quark level. In Buddha Dhamma it’s the Suddhataka.

Now this energy is manifested in the Rupa as mentioned above and sentient beings in Kama loka give the highest priority to these Rupa i.e, Kama raga or prioritising Sensual pleasures derived from such a Rupa 

Anicca- nothing can satisfy permanently. It can be studied in 2 ways.

First, material objects deteriorate with time and if someone is attached to such a thing, he will suffer.

Second , even if that object is prevented from deterioration, it won’t provide permanent satisfaction. 

That is, No Rupa, vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, vinnana has the essence to provide permanent happiness/satisfaction.

And why is it so?

It’s because all these things are Neutral in nature.

Now let’s see why we pursue material things.

We perceive that there is beauty, fragrance, melody(in sound), taste, and touch( pleasure touch). And if any object provides such things, one would want to pursue it.

But the reality is these are creations of the mind! No beauty/ ugliness is present, no good smell nor bad smell, no good taste or bad taste, every material is of neutral nature. Here we see distorted Sanna, how our bodies create these things for the mind.

So if something has no beauty and we pursue it, will we be ever satisfied? Don’t “beautiful women” get divorced by their husbands? Why is the husband leaving that woman? he is probably bored of that face, the perception has changed, and now he might feel beauty in some other woman. The point is some other man would still find that woman beautiful who is being divorced by her husband!

Beauty is subjective and is not an intrinsic property of matter/ energy.

This is Anicca. Nothing has permanent happiness.

Even for taste and others.

So if one is running behind a mirage, will he be satisfied ever? Never. He will only suffer as no permanent happiness and constant wanting (Dukkha), therefore he is helpless (Anatta).

If one realises this , one attains the Sakadagami stage and doesn’t want to hold on to material things. He/she may still want to enjoy the feelings associated with those objects like taste for example.

If one realises it at a deeper level, one attains the Anagami stage. Now the person doesn’t crave for any sensual feelings. Note that pleasure can only be felt if you have the wanting for it, that is ,vexation in the mind, as pleasure is nothing but relief from vexation. 

If you want to eat chocolate and then you eat it, you will feel the taste as well as pleasure.

If you don’t want to eat chocolate and then you eat it,  you will only feel the taste and no pleasure! Same for any sensual feeling!

Even if you experience Orgasm, the same principle Applies, if you want that feeling and then you feel it, you will feel pleasure too. But if you don’t want that feeling and then you feel it , there is no pleasure at that moment but only the feeling.

The mind intentionally creates wanting, so that it can feel pleasure!

There is nothing of essence in Anything!

This is Anicca at a much deeper level .

The bottom line is, you don’t even need to include time for Anicca. Even if someone earns a lot by selling drugs and is Enjoying sensuality, Anicca is there even at that moment.

I hope you got the idea🙏

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Jittananto

Pathfinder: “Again I could be wrong, Bahiya could have gained this understanding somehow even before meeting the Buddha.”

The power of the Paramis and Kusulas of the past is demonstrated by Arahant Bahiya, who was a bhikkhu during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa. He deeply internalized the knowledge of Tilakkhana and practiced diligently, eventually achieving enlightenment in the era of Lord Buddha Gautama. This highlights the importance of persevering in our Dhamma practice. The exceptional accomplishments of Venerable Bahiya and Venerable Santati were the result of great efforts made in their past lives. Nothing comes without effort; this is the nature of the world.

Pathfinder wrote: 

“I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:

“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,

  Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”

“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing

  Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,

  Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,

  Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”

Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. “

______________

The Buddha declared that Ven. Bahiya was the “highest in wisdom” among the disciples of the Buddha. 

• Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.
• I hope to make that connection in the new series of posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.” The second post just posted, “Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World” explains why it is critical to pay attention to sensory inputs: seeing, hearing, etc.
• Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments. That is why the Loka sutta says the arising of the world can be stopped by stopping the rebirth process by attaining Arahanthood.
• When the Buddha talks about the “cessation of the world,” he does not refer to destroying the physical world with an uncountable number of stars and planets, which is impossible. He means the cessation of the world for a given person. Once an Arahant dies, there is no rebirth anywhere in this world of 31 realms; that is the “cessation of the world” for that Arahant.

There is a series of suttas providing the names of the “greatest disciples of the Buddha” in various aspects:

• Bāhiya dārucīriya is in the “Tatiyavagga.”
• The series starts with: “Paṭhamavagga” 
• You can go through the whole series of eight suttas with the complete list.

Here are the main sources :

Bāhiya Dārucīriya

Bāhiya Dārucīriya Mahāthera

• Of course, it is doubtful whether a person can understand the Dhamma so quickly. I will take the example of sport. Sometimes in sports, we see unknown athletes breaking the records of the greatest world champions. No one suspected their existence and yet they have indeed broken the records of those who were known to the general public. At first glance it is impossible but the fact is that this athlete probably worked very hard for many years before getting to where he is. He worked without anyone knowing about his aspiration to be a champion. It’s the same thing with paramis. Arahant Bahiya was not known to the other bhikkhus which is why they had asked Lord Buddha where he would take rebirth. Lord Buddha declared Bahiya as the quickest to understand which probably must have shocked many. Just like the unknown athlete who came to break the records of the most popular Arahant Bahiya worked ardently during Kappas to quickly achieve Nibbāna. The concepts of Paramis and Kusulas are still poorly understood by many Buddhists, which has led to a lot of doubt. It’s important to study these concepts to gain a better understanding, especially in cases like that of Arahant Bahiya.

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TripleGemStudent

Thank you, Jittananto. Those are excellent accounts, even though the translations of the verses are not entirely accurate.

• I encourage all those interested to read them, especially the second link Jittananto provided.
• You can ask questions after carefully reading them. Quote from the links and ask questions.

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Jittananto

No problem Pathfinder! Yes, you can just search in the commentaries of the suttas, the Vinaya Pitaka and sometimes certain Jatakas. I recommend the books of Venerable Mingun Sayadaw for example great chronicles of the Buddhas, Nyanaponika Thera and other Theravada monks. If for example, you want to know in more detail about the different male and female arahants and how they were able to reach Nibbāna I suggest you read the Theragatha, the Therigatha (For women) and the Buddhavamsa (Great chronicle of the Buddhas).

Pathfinder asked: “What were the Buddha’s actual words? Is the sutta central one just a condensed one, or does the link Jittanato sent have additional commentaries, with words not from the Buddha himself?”

1. The problem is that you focused on one of the deepest/most complex suttas. 

• I don’t think any of those translators understand the meaning of those verses the Buddha delivered to Ven. Bahiya.

2. Even in the case of many other suttas, “word-by-word” translations cannot provide the embedded meaning. Such suttas need to be explained in detail. 

• Most suttas are in the “very brief” (uddesa) or “brief” (niddesa) versions. They cannot be translated “word-by-word” but require detailed explanations.
• In the old days, bhikkhus would take a single verse or a few verses from a sutta like that and explain in detail in long verbal discourses. 
• Please read “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa” and “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka“

3. There will come a time when there are no Ariyas (at or above the Sotapanna stage) who can explain Buddha’s teachings. That is the end of Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sasana.

• All the books of the Tipitaka will be there, but no one to explain them.
• Then, the world must wait for another Buddha to be born to learn the teachings of a Buddha. 
• That is why having a “kalyana mitta” to explain the fundamentals is a requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sotāpanna Magga/Phala“

4. People who visit this website have wide-varying backgrounds. I do not know each person’s background enough to recommend specific posts/sections. One needs to scan through various sections. The following sections discuss fundamental concepts:

• “Three Levels of Practice“
• “Living Dhamma“
• “Key Dhamma Concepts“
• Also, I have discussed in detail some suttas: “Sutta Interpretations.”

5. Hopefully, this will also help clarify some of the questions you asked in other threads. 

• Please select a few posts from those sections (or any other section) and start asking questions from them if things are not clear.  That is probably a good way to clarify issues. 

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pathfinder

Yes. That is exactly right!

Hello Pathfinder, I wish you and all of us living beings all the best. 

It’s informative seeing questions from forum members and answers from Lal and others. I really do hope forum members continue to ask questions. Not sure if I had the chance to welcome Pathfinder, Tayral and others to PD and forum, but would like to sincerely welcome you all. May we all be of help for all of us living beings attainment of nibbana.   

Pathfinder, you mentioned: 

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pathfinder, Jittananto

TGS asked: “What are you thoughts on SammasamBuddha’s and paccekaBuddha’s? Or more specially what do you think of how a SammasamBuddha or paccekaBuddha’s can come to the understanding / comprehension of the rules of kamma, Paticca Samuppada, 4 Noble Truths and other doctrines without hearing or listening to the teachings from another? It’s my understanding and belief that hearing / listening to even 1 line of the Buddha’s doctrine could be enough to help one to attain nibbana, especially from an Ariya, likewise from the Buddha.”

A Sammasambuddha or a Paccekabuddha were also average humans (puthujjana). 

• The word puthujjana can be interpreted two ways (some words can have multiple meanings not only in Pali but in other languages, too). (i) “Puthu” means “many” or ‘majority,” and “jana” means “population.” Thus, in this way, puthujjana means “most people.” (ii) The word puthujjana may also come from “pothu” (meaning “not of much use” like the “bark of a tree”) and “janika” means to “generate.” Thus, it could mean “average humans who engage in foolish activities (because they are unaware of the teachings of a Buddha.) That latter meaning is evident in the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)“: “Yo cāyaṁ kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṁhito, yo cāyaṁ attakilamathānuyogo dukkho anariyo anatthasaṁhito.”
• Any Sammasambuddha, Paccekabuddha, Arahant, or anyone with magga phala would have started off as a puthujjana. They evolve into different paths. I tried to explain that in the post “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“

The below is extracted from that post:

9. A person who eventually becomes a Buddha starts as a scientist or a philosopher in today’s terminology. It is started via two paths, and both need to be fulfilled: “kim sacca gavēsi, kim kusala gavēsi“: investigations of truth and morality.

• Sacca (pronounced “sachcha”) means the truth; “kusala” is, of course, morals, and “gavēsi” is one who investigates. One starts with the intention of finding out how nature works, what morals are, and where morals come from.
• Even today, we can assign such labels to many scientists and philosophers. Of course, only a minute fraction of them will eventually become a Buddha or a great disciple, but that is how one starts.

10. That habit (gati) of looking into the truth and morals grows through successive lives. Most of them drop off due to external influences and unexpected circumstances. But those few who get to cultivate those gati keep cultivating them. As I said before, one may not have even heard of a Buddha for many eons while cultivating such gati. It is just that when one is on the right (or even wrong) path, nature starts guiding one: “Dhammō ha vē rakkhati dhammacāri.”

• By the way, one could start as a man or a woman, but only a man attains Buddhahood. This and several other things “that would not happen” are discussed in the “Bahu­dhātu­ka Sutta (MN 115)“.
• In our rebirth process, one could change sex. Sex change can happen even during a lifetime (these days, such transgenders are more common due to social influences).
• In the rebirth process, we have been born a man and a woman innumerable times. If I remember correctly, the Bodhisatta was a woman when she started cultivating pāramitā to become Buddha. But at some point (probably after getting niyata vivarana), he had been a male.
• There is a slight difference between males and females. That may not be politically correct to say these days, but that is the reality. One is a man or a woman because one has cultivated the corresponding gati.  No matter how many laws are passed, the military will always be dominated by men, for example.

11. In the Tipiṭaka, it says the usual progression of one’s character (gati) buildup is dāna (giving), sila (moral conduct), bhāvanā (mostly loving kindness towards others), and culminating in paññā (wisdom).

• While these main ones are being cultivated, others are simultaneously cultivated, and the set of ten is called dasa pāramitā. The others are sacca (truth), viriya (effort), khanti (patience), adhitthāna (determination), metta (loving-kindness), nekkhamma (renunciation), and upekkhā (equanimity).
• The process has been analyzed in great detail. For example, each of those ten grows into higher stages: upa pāramitā (middle) and paramatta pāramitā (ultimate). As one progresses through successive lives, such gati get amplified, and one advances to those higher stages.
• As we saw in the previous post, “Animisa Locana Bodhi Poojawa – A Prelude to Acts of Gratitude, “it takes an unimaginably long time to purify the mind and attain the perfect mind of a Buddha.

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Yash RS, TripleGemStudent, pathfinder, Jittananto