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“Reverend Ānanda, one time I was staying right here at Sāvatthī in the Dark Forest.
There I gained a state of immersion like this. I didn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And I didn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And I didn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet I still perceived.”“Ekamidāhaṁ, āvuso ānanda, samayaṁ idheva sāvatthiyaṁ viharāmi andhavanasmiṁ.
Tatthāhaṁ tathārūpaṁ samādhiṁ samāpajjiṁ yathā neva pathaviyaṁ pathavisaññī ahosiṁ, na āpasmiṁ āposaññī ahosiṁ, na tejasmiṁ tejosaññī ahosiṁ, na vāyasmiṁ vāyosaññī ahosiṁ, na ākāsānañcāyatane ākāsānañcāyatanasaññī ahosiṁ, na viññāṇañcāyatane viññāṇañcāyatanasaññī ahosiṁ, na ākiñcaññāyatane ākiñcaññāyatanasaññī ahosiṁ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatane nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasaññī ahosiṁ, na idhaloke idhalokasaññī ahosiṁ, na paraloke paralokasaññī ahosiṁ; saññī ca pana ahosin”ti.The sentence at the end “And yet I still perceived”. Just wondering if there’s another way to saying “And yet I still perceived” or a different wording for “perceive”? The English word “perceive” seems like it can confuse some people as they would believe that when one is in nirodha samapatti, one is still “perceiving” this world with the 5 aggregates.
If one read’s the ending paragraph of the sutta and are able to think intellectually, they would be able to see that whatever is “perceived” is actually nibbana. Nibbana has nothing to do with the 5 aggregates and one wouldn’t be perceiving anything in nirodha samapatti.
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You almost got to the point, TGS.
If Ven. Sariputta was in Nirodha Samapatti, he would not have any saññā.
– But he stated that he was still perceiving, meaning he still had saññā arising.
– If one still has saññā, that means one still has citta arising. Yet, he did not perceive anything in this world (na idhaloke idhalokasaññī) or anything of paraloka (na paraloke paralokasaññī)
– Ven. Saripuatta was in Arahant phala samadhi! There only pure, undefiled citta (pabhassara citta) would arise. A pabhassara citta has only seven uncontaminated, universal cetasika (with pure saññā and vedana). That means one is ONLY aware that one is alive but does not perceive anything in the world.
– A citta normally would contaminate in nine stages. Even for Arahants, it will go through the mano, manasan stages. See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought”
– In contrast, no citta (i.e., no saññā) in nirodha samapatti: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“ -
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So glad that I mentioned about this subject / sutta. I learned that I didn’t understand the sutta mentioned properly and could’ve continued to error without the explanation that was just given. The answer was blindsiding to me.
I’ll borrow material to add to this line: “Ven. Saripuatta was in Arahant phala samadhi! There only pure, undefiled citta (pabhassara citta) would arise.”
“Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika, and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that)”
I was wondering what is this “Nibbana” thought object making contact with the phassa cetasika? I looked through an older forum thread “Difference between Arahant Phala Samapatti and Nirodha Samapatti. I saw the mention of asankata dhatu and nibbana dhatu (I was thinking nibbana dhatu) as being the possible thought object making contact with the phassa cetasika, but I’m not certain.
Regardless this was a beneficial learning experience for me.
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