Ghandhabba, Jati, Vinnana (Consciousness)

I am also reading the section titled: “Consciousness – A Dhamma Perspective” In a sense, human beings are like a giant double-slit experiment. The observer is the interrupter. The observer is the mental body as well as the physical body. Perhaps there is no Rabbit Hole, just the imaginary concept of a Rabbit Hole. Nothing is down the hole. Everything between the human and the object and or subject, is changeable based on one’s intentions leading to a particular result. I may be way over my head, but this is me rambling with contemplation.
Dipo

Hello Lal,

I agree with your assessment. My reason for quoting the Nature article was to highlight my viewpoint that IF science continues with the posited hypothesis: “Understanding how consciousness arises from neural activity remains one of the biggest challenges for neuroscience,” they may be relegated to a dog chasing its own tail. They will never find the answer. However, perhaps I was not very clear (I have that habit). My focus was really on the question:

“How would you represent, in a list form, e.g. Step 1, Step 2…(imagine dominoes) of the operation of an average human life cycle (including the linking up of consciousness)? Where does the process begin? I know that there is no beginning to rebirth, but does the cycle begin again at death (cuti patisandhi) or a combination of death and the activation of a gandhabba? I wish to begin at the starting point of a single cycle of rebirth and create a sort of, for lack of a better phrase, time-line. At death, what triggers the rebirth process? Kamma, Gandhabba, Cuti Patisandhi??? I think, from what I have studies thus far, that the rebirth process begins with a combination of these things, but in what order, if any? Is the order specific to or determined by kamma?”

In your reply, you stated: “…consciousness can arise ONLY in a hadaya vatthu created by kammic energy. As we know, hadaya vatthu is the key element in a gandhabba.”

So, to simplify:

1. Hadaya vatthu (mind door): This is a concatenated Pali word. I noticed that the meaning of “hadaya” is “heart” in the Sutta Central dictionary.

“Hadaya: 1 The substance of the heart Mil.281; Dhs-a.140 2 “heart-basis,” the heart as basis of mind, sensorium commune Tikp.17, Tikp.26, Tikp.53 sq., Tikp.62, Tikp.256; Vism.447; Snp-a.228; Dhs-a.257, Dhs-a.264; the heart as seat of thought and feeling, esp. of strong emotion, which shows itself in the action of the heart SN.i.199.”

2. Vatthu: a site ; ground ; field ; plot ; object ; a thing ; a substance ; a story. basis, foundation, seat, (objective) substratum, substance, element Ja.i.146. -kamma “act concerning sites,” i.e. preparing the ground for building DN.i.12.

Am I to understand then that kamma is the substratum from which the hadaya vatthu is created? Existing kammic elements (as in vatthu-kamma) then refine the gandhabba element?

So, in the process of rebirth (the causal moment of rebirth) would you say that Step 1 is the creation of consciousness via vatthu-kamma, thus energizing a gandhabba?

In that sequence (if correct) what would you consider Step 2 to be? (I redirect you back to my original question as to purpose of intent.)

Your site is indispensable to me. However, I do feel like a bird following breadcrumbs from here to there and back again. Perhaps there is no other method than this. However, might I be so bold to suggest a post/section titled: Consciousness & Rebirth: How it Happens? which would be a step by step explanation beginning say from the moment that cuti patisandhi is generated.

Also, just as a suggestion, when you write a post, it would be immensely helpful to put a brief, concise definition of the Pali word. For example:

“Gandhabba Is the Essential “Seed” for the Physical Human Body

1. A human-being is born at the cuti-paṭisandhi moment first with just the “mental body.” That is the manomaya kāya or a gandhabba. Once that gandhabba “descends” to a womb, the physical body starts growing.

The alternate might be:

Gandhabba Is the Essential “Seed” for the Physical Human Body

1. A human-being is born at the cuti-paṭisandhi (joining a new life at the end of the old) moment first with just the “mental body.” That is the manomaya kāya or a gandhabba (mental body). Once that gandhabba “descends” to a womb, the physical body starts growing.

In metta,
Dipo

Acchariyo! Anumodati

So, then if I understand you correctly, in the case of Angulimala, his previous life strong arammana, which negatively influenced his kamma, became washed away by the fact that he was able to overcome very strong avijja, thus awakening to the truth about the nature of his own reality. Therefore, his last citta vithi, stemming from his previous hadaya vatthu was active. This was the cause of his arammana, which corresponded to the STRONGEST kamma from his past actions. He was attached to that strong arammana. Therefore, his previous kammic imprint (kammic energy) was the cause of his hadaya vatthu. Given Angulimala’s awakening (realization) this would negate this hadaya vatthu when the new gandhabba finds its way to a new life.

Previous to Angulimala’s birth, as Angulimala, his last cuti patisandhi combined with a series of domino-like events, influenced by his negative kammic imprint, thus defining his hadaya vatthu, which grasped at that “mindset,” so that when a gandhabba became active for his life as Angulimala, he was born as a murderer. Is this assessment fairly close?

Dipo

Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. I will review what you wrote again, as-well-as a review of PS. My understanding of certain things is somewhat basic. However, digging for the true meaning on the Buddha’s teachings is a privilege, and at my age, I have not the time to waste. I am not content with mere recitation or knowing a little bit about the Buddha Dhamma. I am content risking being honest despite causing myself to appear to be stupid to others at times. If I appear to be stupid to others who is it that holds the hot coal? Those emotions are anathema to me, and have no meaning.

The most wonderful thing that I have learned from the Buddha Dhamma is to see the world as it really is, and how very deeply this world is drowning in delusion. How much gratitude I feel secretly for the privilege of even having access to the Buddha Dhamma; the opportunity, and the fact that it makes sense. I suppose that there is a kammic reason that somehow the Buddha Dhamma seems familiar to me and makes sense once I contemplate and reflect on the purpose and connection behind the teaching. ඔබ මා සමඟ ඉවසීමට ස්තූතියි

Dipo

Dearest Lang,
Thank you for the explanation. I do not know all of the Pali terms you are using, so I will have to look them up. With regard to my asking about a starting point, the elementary nature of my question may be getting lost amidst an intellectual mental block. Basically, let’s assume that a persons last thought is both the end and the starting point (citta vithi) and cuti patisandhi.

What comes next? I understand that there is a whole series of things that will effect the forming of the next life. If I understand correctly, the “series of things” is influenced by and generated from a person’s kammic profile (kammic energy) and the level/intensity/condition (?) of the existent arammana. At death, according to Lal, the gandhabba, which is attached to or accompanied by a person’s hadaya vathu, leaves the old body, and awaits a “matching” womb. This cycle continues until a person’s hadaya vathu is exhausted.

According to the definition at Sutta Central, I agree that “arammana” is the starting point. But, is arammana a condition, a state, a cause? From the definition, it seems that arammana is more like a type of fuel or catalyst. Is arammana a constituent element of one’s kammic profile?

So, the gandhabba with its attached hadaya vathu is waiting in the wings. A matching womb comes available. Then, according to Lal: <b>”At that point, the last citta vithi from this hadaya vatthu will run, which will be focused on an arammana corresponding to the STRONGEST kamma from my past.”</b>

Does it appear that this enfeebled brain is beginning to understand the concepts?

With metta,
Dipo

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
ārammaṇa: neuter basis, starting point (for producing or initiating activity), footing; basis of meditation; object, object of consideration, sense-object

PTS Pali English Dictionary

Ārammaṇa: neuter primary meaning “foundation”, from this applied in the following: senses: support, help, footing, expedient, anything to be depended upon as a means of achieving what is desired, i.e. basis of operation, chance Snp verse 1069 (= ālambana, nissaya, upanissaya Cnd.132); Pv.4:1 (yaṁ kiñc’ ārammaṇaṁ katvā) ārammaṇaṁ labhati (+ otāraṁ labhati) to get the chance SN.ii.268; SN.iv.185; condition, ground, cause, means esp. a cause of desire or clinging to life, pl. -ā causes of rebirth (interpreted by taṇhā at Mnd.429), lust Snp verse 474 (= paccayā Snp-a.410), Snp verse 945 (= Mnd.429); Kp-a.23; Dhp-a.i.288 (sappāy˚); Pv-a.279

Dear Lal,

Thank you Lal. I hope that you are able to gain some headway in the other forum. What did the Buddha do when faced with someone whose apparent ignorance was solid as granite? It is my belief that all of the mistranslations, misinterpretations and warping of the Buddha Dhamma in our present Age, are due in part to humankind’s seeming love affair with individuality. Many Westerners seek to develop their own concept of what the Buddha taught, and at times with righteous indignation. Westerner’s believe they need labels for everything, including the Buddha Dhamma. This is the reason that Westerner’s gravitate toward labeling what the Buddha taught religion. Perhaps this is a sign that we are approaching the 500 years when the Dhamma will disappear until Maitraya is born. I hesitate to say this out loud, but the various Mahayana branches have not done the Buddha Dhamma any favors.

I have been reading feverishly, but as you know, deep concentration and meditation is necessary to make connections with regard to understanding the Dhamma…the big picture. Again, thank you Lal and Lang. I appreciate the help.

Thank you Lal, Lang and Cubibobi. I am beginning to obtain some clarity on this subject. Reading many current books and papers on the topic of consciousness from Roger Penrose (“Shadows of the Mind”), Colin McGinn (“The Mysterious Flame”), Llinas & Chruchland (“The Mind-Brain Continuum”), Christof Koch, Avi Loeb, David Chalmers, and Anil Seth, et al. I am left with the impression that science and philosophy is dancing around some of the same questions posited by people such as Aristotle, Plato and Socrates, and yet are no closer to obtaining any answers.

Although I do not have a complete grasp of the Buddha Dhamma regarding the elements and mechanics of consciousness and rebirth (yet), I instinctively feel that the answers to questions about consciousness were already well known by the Buddha. Now, whether or not science and philosophy are prepared to consider the Buddha Dhamma on this subject is another story altogether.

My query into this topic does not stem from a position of intellectualism or a desire to feed some intellectual need. Rather, my interest stems from curiosity on one level, and a sense of awe on another. That I have lived these many years (67) and not known that the answers to the problems of human existence were right under my nose is sobering to say the least. Having come as far as I have in my study of the Buddha Dhamma I can express with conviction that there is no turning back. Considering the present topic at hand, I feel like I am standing on a precipice of understanding. In one sense it is exhilarating, and stuffed with energy and determination. In another sense, I feel that there exists yet another, more sobering level, which is that of responsibility to act according to what I am learning. Seeing the world, and indeed, my own life, as it actually is: The truth about the nature of reality, is nothing less than a marvel.

So, thank you all for your generous input.

Now, with regard to something Lal has written about many times,

“This is a good example of the problem we are facing today. Those dictionaries were written by the early European scholars who tried their best to interpret the vast Pali literature they came across in Sri Lanka and other Asian countries in the early 1800s.”

This is very similar to the case of ancient hieroglyphs, demotic and cuneiform that were first decoded and translated one-hundred years ago. But, I must ask what sources do you rely on for deciphering the true meaning of the Pali language? Is there a more up to date source (perhaps TamilCube) other than the Pali Text Society’s renderings? Also, is the case the same for learning Pali from the many sources available? At present I use TamilCube, PTS and Sutta Central. Are there better sources? Also, if I teach myself Pali how confident can I be that what I am learning is correct or that the sources for learning render correct translation?

I have written many papers focusing on everyday issues using the Buddha Dhamma to explain the solutions. In most of these papers I try and circle the reader toward the Four Noble Truths. However, with regard to the correctness of my references of Buddha Dhamma, I am on my own. Not for egotistical reasons I write out of a sense of Dhamma-driven compulsion. I have a feeling that Lal may know what I am talking about. For example, I wrote a paper titled: “Why Am I Who I Am?” (ResearchGate)* that has become quite popular around the world. There is scarcely a country where this paper has not reached. However, in my efforts to write about the Buddha Dhamma as it applies to questions about the problems of human existence, I do so with a sense of hesitation because I worry about how correct my references are in terms of the correct meaning of the Pali words. I give it my best, whatever my best is at this moment in time.

Lal’s Forum is invaluable to me. It is evident that he has a strong conviction for preserving the Dhamma as was spoken by the Buddha. So, should anyone care to read this article and provide me with feedback, particularly if there are any instances where I may have, unintentionally and grossly misrepresented the Buddha Dhamma.

Again, thank you all for your kind dana.

Dipo

* Alternate sites:
Internet ArchiveWhy Am I Who I Am?
Academia: Why Am I Who I Am?

Dear Lal,

Your comment:

“In my opinion, reading the works of Roger Penrose, etc., in the present day to Aristotle, Plato and Socrates will not clarify the origin of consciousness. The bottom line is that consciousness CAN NOT arise from inert matter. But, of course, each person is entitled to whatever they want to do.”

I am reading these merely to obtain a correct view of what these scientists are saying. When reading their works I can see where the Buddha Dhamma applies. For example, the following was offered by Colin McGinn (professor of philosophy at Rutgers University) in his book titled “The Mysterious Flame.”

Consciousness and the question of self are intimately related. the self also has a hidden nature, an unknown essence. We ask, under what conditions the self continues to exist. The deeper question is how a bunch of cells can become a self anyway. The fact that there is no scientific criteria for the appearance of selves. We don’t know enough about what makes a self exist. We can know that we exist all right, but we cannot grasp our intrinsic nature. I suggest that our ignorance here is an ignorance of a hidden architecture of the self. Something about the hidden structure of the self determines its unity and identity, but we do not grasp this hidden structure, which is why we cannot answer questions about unity and identity with any reliability. If the existence of the self is so knowable then its nature must also be knowable. The fact is that we have no good theory about mental causation, no model for how reasoning leads to choice. Mental causation is mysterious. We simply have no general theoretical grasp of how mental states cause behavior. Once we let go of the craving to explain, we can accept the reality of something that we cannot theoretically comprehend. But, mental causation remains secretive and opaque.

As I am sure you may experience the same idea, when I read these things, I realize two things: 1) How close some of these scientists and philosophers get, but are totally in the dark. 2) That the things that they state, represent the essence of what is being told to the general public. My only purpose for reading such things is to understand, from an analytical standpoint, what the world is being told in comparison to what the Buddha Dhamma states. Using this knowledge, I will be able to compose a paper that addresses both sides of the issue of consciousness for the purpose of revealing just how lost science and philosophy are with regard to this subject.

Your comment #1: That was a good clarification, thank you. I wish that there was a Bhante such as Waharaka Thero near me. I live in a Dhamma desert. The closest monastery to me is several hundred miles away. My physical health prevents me from doing many things. I was born with a genetic spinal disorder known as Anykylosing Spondylitis. According to the initial questions asked for someone seeking Patimokkha regarding health, i.e. Do you have leprosy? Do you have boils? Do you have eczema? Do you have tuberculosis? Do you have epilepsy? My condition requires that I have constant medical attention and many medications. Part of becoming a Theravada monk requires you to give up all possessions which includes money and any non-essential hygiene equipment or medical supplies such as creams or ointments. That is not possible for me to do.

However, my condition is of no consequence with regard to how I conduct my life as a follower of the Buddha. I fully intend on being a bhikkhu, even if I am not at a monastery or have a Master/preceptor to bring me through the complete set of vows. I conduct my life at present as close to a monk as is possible. I follow the Vinaya rules as much as I am able. I still have to handle money and attend to money-affairs. However, I have given away most of my belongings and live quite frugally.

There are many examples in the Sutta of so-called lay-persons who achieved even Arahanthood. Then there is the existence of a paccekabuddha (ariya-puggala who has realized Nibbana without having heard the Buddha’s doctrine from others.) I do not flatter myself that I am either, but my intention is that I am able to continue to learn and live the Buddha Dhamma until this life-cycle is finished. Writing helps me to learn because I have to do a lot of research. Since the Buddha Dhamma has made such an impression and caused me to change my life, I feel compelled to write about it. Perhaps the reason why I was given the name Anacaryiako was relevant. I have yet to fulfill the true meaning of my first name Dipobhasadhamma, since I can hardly be called a lamp that illuminates the Dhamma, at least not yet.

Thank you for the reference to the Pali dictionary that you use. I did not know of it. Also, I have been using TamilCube’s Pali Dictionary to compare to PTS and Sutta Central. And, thank you for the Post references. I did download your posts in book format as well. But I have started a catalog arranged by subject matter on an external hard drive. I am in the process of creating an Index of subjects for myself as easy reference. I know that it would be a tremendous amount of work, but you might consider compiling your own Pali Dictionary.

Thank you for your generosity and response. I have much reading to do.

With metta,
Dipo

Dear Lal,

Thank you for the reply. It was quite informative e.g. with hadaya vathu. So, I believe I am beginning to formulate a big picture. Let me know if I am close to clear understanding. My sequence may be incorrect.

Kammic energy, which properties (conditions) are determined individually by one’s actions both past and present, is the linking energy determining the future rebirth. Kammic properties are influenced, in part by strong arammana, either positive or negative, but if I am correct, the arammana is similar to intent in concept; it is therefore the trigger for a cause which produces an effect.

The body dies:
1. Cuti Patisandhi takes place.
2. The gandhabba leaves the dead body. (Little confused here: If hadaya-vithu is the key element of gandhabba, does this mean that the hadaya vithu of the dead person transfers to the new life as a part of the gandhabba?) You instruction: “A hadaya vatthu for a future existence arises due to a specific kammic energy created in this life and previous lives.”
3. Kammic energy, in the form of kamma bija, produces the hadaya vithu? (This step may be misplaced and or misunderstood.)
4. The hadaya vathu and the gandhabba from the dead person lie in wait for a matching womb(?). (I am not sure if this is the correct perspective.)
5. The last citta vithi of the person’s death will be the first of the new body. (Citta Vithi remains, for lack of a better description, active, alive (?) in a similar way as a computer’s motherboard battery keeps the clock alive. Your instruction: “…the last citta vithi from this hadaya vatthu will run, which will be focused on an arammana corresponding to the
STRONGEST kamma from my past.”

Not sure if I am close. But, here is where I encounter fog. Which attribute seeks the new womb? Is it the gandhabba or the kamma bija? OR is the kamma bija an element of the gandhabba or the other way around. I suppose I am having difficulty placing these various elements of the death and rebirth process in sequence. I imagine that some of the elements are not necessarily sequential, but may be concurrent. Still, I am having a bit of difficulty putting then in order. I am not sure you can see how I am trying to put the process into some kind of order. If I could, I think it would make more sense to me. I do not think that I have a very abstract way of thinking. I have very strong creative tendencies, painting, drawing, music, cooking, designing, writing, gardening, etc.

(If you are interested, I posted several of my artwork images on my Facebook Profile.)
Dipobhasadhamma’s Artwork

With metta,
Dipo