Post on "Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)"

“An even in this kappa, the Gōtama Buddha Sāsana would last only 5000 years, a negligible time in terms of a kappa. This is why we should not waste this rare opportunity.”

I think this is the most important message of this post.

Many thanks to Lal for giving us an introduction to this intriguing sutta.

This question is to Lal and actually I thought about it prior to this too.
Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.
I am not writing this out of ignorance or asaddha (opposite of saddha), but asking this, because if someone points out this point, how do we answer or counter his/her point/question.
I know suffering in apaya (especially niraya for even a short duration is beyond comprehension, beyond explanation in words) is too much to endure even for short duration of time.
I hope I could put my question properly. I do not want to discourage anybody (because you can enjoy 75% of time), but trying to make picture clear.

Metta to all and may all beings attain a magga phala.

It is often stated that a human birth is very precious,primarily, but not solely,because the balance between pleasure and suffering is optimum to enable one to see into dukkha, its causes, and, with greater difficulty, into its results as also those of sukkha.

However,living as a human during a Buddha sasana is rare. The human bhavas one lives through outside of a Buddha sasana, without ‘the Dhamma in circulation’, or without any possibility of access to it, even during a Buddha sasana, does away with the value of a human bhava. That will be the case with most, even now. One is left to one’s own devices, as high as those may be, contemplating for instance, the implications of eternity, infinity, even perhaps to getting the fleeting idea from the material world all around as analogy,that all phenomena, even mental ones ,must have causes as well as results. But there is no way one could discover by oneself all that a Buddha reveals out of his once-in-a (or so many)- kappas Purity of Mind: the 31 realms, the 4 Noble truths, Tilakkhana,PS ,the intricate details in Abhidhamma and so on.

Therefore,on the practical side a human bhava acquires all the more value when one happens to be living through it during a Buddha sasana

This is to emphasize once more, if there were any need for it, the supreme importance of striving when the conditions happen to be just right.

Metta to all

Hi my friend y not! It is good to see your post again!

You wrote: The human bhavas one lives through outside of a Buddha sasana, without ‘the Dhamma in circulation’, or without any possibility of access to it, even during a Buddha sasana, does away with the value of a human bhava. That will be the case with most, even now. One is left to one’s own devices, as high as those may be, contemplating for instance, the implications of eternity, infinity, even perhaps to getting the fleeting idea from the material world all around as analogy,that all phenomena, even mental ones ,must have causes as well as results. But there is no way one could discover by oneself all that a Buddha reveals out of his once-in-a (or so many)- kappas Purity of Mind: the 31 realms, the 4 Noble truths, Tilakkhana,PS ,the intricate details in Abhidhamma and so on.

The human bhava/realm is a pivotal realm, in which beings have the most power to change their destinies, especially during a Buddha Sasana. However, even outside of a Buddha Sasana, it is true too, though to a lesser extent.

I state the above, having read that beings in the apayas have very little power to effect changes in their destinies, and think that deva and brahma beings also have little opportunities to do meritorious deeds or to develop compassion, as they encounter very little suffering in their realms.

Outside of a Buddha Sasana, in the human realm, there could be righteous people who could be from other religions, or who live moral lives, as a result of having developed good gati. They have the opportunity to develop their paramitas, waiting for a future Buddha to come along.

Then there are other moral individuals who can continue to develop the fertile ground to fulfill their aspirations made during any prior Buddha Sasanas. They, too, await a future Buddha.

Hence it is important to cultivate good knowledge of Buddhadhamma, develop good gati as well as to make aspirations during a Buddha Sasana to attain Nibbana , with or without corresponding conditions attached. For example, when Sariputta and Maha Moggallana many aeons ago, at the time of the Buddha Anomadassi, were born as the brahman youth Sarada and landowner Sirivaddhaka, they made the aspiration for Chief Discipleship, and eventually became the Chief Disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha.

Then there are the Paccekabuddhas, who realize Nibbana solely through their own efforts, but are unable teach the Dhamma. They realize their ultimate goal outside of a Buddha Sasana.

So, even outside of a Buddha Sasana, the human bhava has its own value too, though it is of course still anatta.

By the way, y not, I left out that I fully agree with you that we need to strive diligently when the conditions happen to be just right. (Since I started typing the previous post more than an hour ago, I thought better of editing it, and just added another post.)

May I reciprocate that friendly greeting of yours with ‘Hello, friend-in-the-Dhamma firewrns’

I had said:”…does away with the value of a human bhava.”

You go on: “..even outside of a Buddha Sasana, the human bhava has its own value too, though it is of course still anatta.”

Quite true. One can still ‘prepare the groundwork’,as it were, for when a Buddha IS around in the future through moral and virtuous living. I saw only the ‘cosmic aspect’ of it as I wrote. Thank you for reminding me, and others, of this.

This brings up another point I have been wanting to mention: why should it be that out of 10,000 stellar systems a Buddha appears only on this planet, or more precisely, on re-evolutions of it? What is so special about planet Earth? I am not comfortable with this special status of planet Earth and, all the more,that out of all those humanities, WE happen to be on it; it is true that is of no adverse consequence to the devas and brahmas on those other inhabited planets, but why should those in a human bhava here be so privileged compared to the ones on those other planets?

Whatever the answer to that, if there is one, as we never tire of reminding ourselves and one another: let not too much importance be attached to it-just a glance to the side. The goal lies straight ahead.

Metta

There are 4 kappa: destruction, void, formation, existence. Why does it take a kappa for the destruction? A supernovae would destroy the solar system within a short time (e.g. a few days depending on the distance sun <-> earth). If the star in another solar system would first need to expand before the final supernovae blast we would not be affected during that time. But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much. Do I missunderstand something?

Lal, please see #17:
“…There have been 30 mahā kappa without a single Buddha prior to the current mahā kappa. That is 120 billion years!…”

A complete cycle takes 40 billion years, thus 30×40 billion = 1200 billion, right?

Tobias,

“But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much”

I had not thought of that. But now that you are mentioning it…what comes to mind is that it resembles decomposition of a physical body in a way: after physical death, that body will take time to be reduced to the most basic organisms. With stars and planets, the process goes further to atomic particles; followed by re-absorption into ‘nature’ (a long process, admittedly) then the void, no processes of nature taking place. When they start taking pace, formation….etc

There may be an analogy in the way stars convert hydrogen into helium. The hydrogen is there ‘all at once’ but the entire process takes billions of years. The ‘destruction’ is a process. I am not sure whether this analogy is an apt one.

Metta

Hi Lal,

Is the Pali version of Aggañña Sutta at Sutta Central an original reliable source?(link).

When I search of some words like “Cakkavāla”, “antakkappa” I couldn’t find them or maybe I am not searching them properly. So I am just curious what source you use as a reference for the original Pali versions of suttas.

Thanks.

Hi Lal,

Just discovered your website. I’m enjoying it very much. Much merit to you!

Can you please give your references for chakkavala being the solar system and not the Milkyway Galaxy? Someone gave the latter translation a few months ago and I would like some clarity.

Thanks,

Vindhya

Most people read aganna sutta and see differences between the current evolution theory and the Buddhist teachings. Lal even called this a reverse evolution theory but somehow I have managed to see some similarities that I would like to mention here.

1. Agganna sutta mentions living beings coming from Brahma realms with very fine bodies and tells the story on how the bodies became denser to become the current version. To me, it sounds like a different way of explaining how humans evolved from a single celled organism into living beings with denser bodies consisting of tissues, organs and complex Systems etc.

2. The sutta explains how at the beginning all their needs were met without having to work hard. in my mind it equals to single celled organisms having all their needs such as food met buy the nature itself.

3. Apart from the use of the word human everything seems to add up for me. The fact that the sutta uses the phrase humans with less dense bodies sounds like the buddha was referring to humans in a different sense than what we usually call humans. In my head it is a pre evolutionary stage of Being a human.

4. Sometimes I Wonder If buddha used the word humans at all or was it a mistake in Translation? since I don’t know Pali it’s difficult for me to determine.

5. Evolution says that humans appeared around million years ago. In science human is defined according to the physical aspects of Being Human. In Buddhism they may be referring to the mental aspects of being born in the human realm. Is it possible that in the age of Dinosaurs there was a certain version of living beings with similar capabilities to humans? May be not with two legs, two hands and two eyes but similar mental emotional functions and intelligence.

Does these claims make sense to you? I would really like to know your opinion.

I can see why you called it a reverse evolution now. Thanks.

This is just fascinating material! I’ve read the post a few times, plus the links it points to; all of this does increase my faith in Buddha Dhamma, but at the same time, I can’t help being curious about a couple of things:

1) I wonder why nature works out in such a way that the odds are so high against humans having access to Buddha Dhamma: being born in the human bhava (rare), AND in a Buddha Sasana (rare), AND in the right cakkavāla (out of 10,000).

Lal has explained how low the chance of being born to the human realm is (How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm). One would like to think that after such a rare event, the odds of coming in contact with Buddha Dhamma would be relatively high. Yet, after “making it” as a human, one may go for 30 kappas without a Buddha, or one may be in the “wrong” cakkavāla.

This can make one feel quite scared about NOT making the sotapanna stage in this life. Furthermore, it makes one feel scared for his/her loved ones who are paying no attention to Buddha Dhamma and are actively engaged in sansara.

In this context, it seems better to be born a deva or brahma, since if they are born in a Buddha Sasana but in the “wrong” cakkavāla they can still “travel” to hear Dhamma.

2)
Lal said: “Even after the end of the Kassapa Buddha Sāsana, his teachings were transmitted as Vedic teachings, of course without the deeper meanings.”

It seems like the Hindus were better at “record keeping” than the Buddhists. When a Buddha Sasana ends, do all traces of Dhamma disappear? For example, the Tipitaka from the time of Kassapa Buddha was just gone?

Thank you so much for these wonderful posts!
Lang

… just one follow-up thought from the above: Can a human gandhabba travel from one cakkavāla to another?

Very good questions, Cubibobi.

1: ‘Nature’ or Existence or Reality works within the framework of eternity. To the human mind, 30 mahakappas are a very long time. But the Buddha said that all the tears we have shed, or the blood we have shed having been slain as animals FROM BEGININGLESS TIME is more than the waters of all the oceans; and that is difficult to come across ANYBODY in life who had not been your mother or father or brother or sister etc. And those are only analogies, to give some idea, a very vague one ,to His listeners. In reality anything that has no beginning will admit of no fitting analogy, only one that is beginingless as well.

So however long it takes to be born a human in a Buddha sasana on this planet (among the many inhabited ones in this cakkavala) is still a VERY SHORT TIME when one knows that once Nibbana is attained ,that state will then last FOREVER.

2: The Budddha himself said that with time the Dhamma would disappear, gradually. And where there is no Dhamma there can be no Sangha to spread that Dhamma. Now how the vestiges of the Dhamma in Kassapa.s sasana came into the hands of the Hindus in the next (Gotama’s) sasana, I do not know.

3. No, apparently not. Only devas and Brahmas can. For if it were otherwise, those gandhabbas from other inhabited planets in this cakkkavala, or some of them at least, would have come to listen to the Buddha as well, but the Tipitaka makes no mention of them.

I must make a correction.

I used the term ‘cakkavala’ to mean the (our, in this case) ‘10,000 star-system’. Readers will have realized that is incorrect and that the word means our or any other single star-system.

My apologies.

I will get back to question Lal’s first point in #3.

– “3. It is rare for any living being to “transfer” from one cakkavāla to another.
– But those with well-established miccha ditthi could be born in other cakkavāla.” – August 14, 2019 at 4:05 pm

Q: Why only any living beings with well-established miccha ditthi ? And not those with well-established samma ditthi as well?

As you state it, Lal, it suggests to me that those with well-established miccha ditthi would find a ‘more fitting’ place to work out their kamma vipaka in the conditions of another planet. Conversely (if this ‘inter-planetary migration’ applies also for those with well-established samma ditthi) this would afford them a better place to progress, one ‘more in line with their gathi’ and with the conditions there (in the ‘new’ planet’s realms).

So it is that we all have relatives in other cakkavalas, (and those relatives of ours do not necessarily have to be in human bodies there right now.) The ‘transfer’ from one cakkavala to another can be done in a deva or brahma ‘body’, even if it rarely occurs, but I do not see how it can apply to human gandhabbas.

Thank you.

P.S. I am aware that you did not say that human gandhabbas transfer. Just to remove any doubt that may arise.

Space oddity? Space FACTS from a Buddha!

From: “How far to heaven?”

The king said: ‘How far is it, Nāgasena, from here to the Brahma world ?’
‘Very far is it, O king. If a rock, the size of an upper chamber, were to fall from there, it would take four months to reach the earth, though it came down eight-and-forty thousand leagues each day and night.’
(Rājā āha—“bhante nāgasena, kīvadūro ito brahmaloko”ti? “Dūro kho, mahārāja, ito brahmaloko kūṭāgāramattā silā tamhā patitā ahorattena aṭṭhacattālīsayojanasahassāni bhassamānā catūhi māsehi pathaviyaṃ patiṭṭhaheyyā”ti.)

Taking a league to be 7 miles, we have a distance of : 84,000 leagues x 7 mls x 120 days = : 70,560,000 mls, that is, about half -way the average distance between Earth and Mars. The deva realms would then be closer still. The sutta does not specify which brahma realm is meant, but I figure that the higher brahma realms above the Abhassara are not subject to the gravitational pull of the Earth (or the Sun, for that matter , or of any other planet) for all these are destroyed eventually, but those brahma realms remain intact, independent of the existence or otherwise of any celestial body.

It would APPEAR amazing that an estimate of such a distance could be made by someone 2,500 years ago, and that the speed of ‘Milinda’s upper chamber’is given as 24,500 m.p.h (when it is known today that meteorites travel at a speed of between 25,000 and 150,000 m.p.h !!)BUT NOT WHEN WE KNOW THAT IT WAS KNOWLEDGE COMING FROM A BUDDHA. This is one other instance where Buddhadhamma was, is and ever will be far ahead of science.

Even though true, cosmic and other ‘scientific’facts such as these found in Buddhadhamma should not deviate us from the main, the ONE objective of making an end of suffering. If anything, they only go on to prove, if there were any need for it, that the knowledge of a Buddha, Sattha devamanussanam, is indeed supreme.

May the blessings of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be with us all.

“This account is from ‘Milinda Panha’, which is A LATER EDITION TO THE TIpitaka.”

I did not know that Lal, thank you.

I knew that King Milinda was somewhat later than the Buddha, but not how much later exactly. I figured out that Nagasena must have been an Arahant, judging by the clarity and the certitude of his answers- his words reflecting the knowledge of the Buddha.

Thank you.

Hi!
I might be wrong but I think that a mistake was made while explaining the transition of beings from the lower realms to the Brahma realms on the destruction of the planet.
I would like to remember that the universe is something like infinite (or very big at least). There are innumerable clusters of 10.000 systems in which each and every system is passing through their own cycle. Considering this, beings that belong to any real, with the exception of those with subtle/non material bodies, will be reborn in another cluster in correspondence with their kamma at the time of the destruction of their planet.
This beings will only be “forcibly” reborn in the Brahmas realms with the Contraction of the entire universe, when there is no other place where their accumulated kamma can express its effects.

One thing seems not accounted for in the Buddha’s (i.e.the real) model.

Stars not massive enough to go supernova, like the Sun, will expand into red giants, engulfing and destroying the nearer planets including Earth (in the case of the Solar system) before shrinking back to white dwarfs. If an inhabited planet lies within that radius, the destruction will happen before the explosion of a supernova in the vicinity. The star’s time ‘is up’ before that of the supernova.

I have for long pondered in how literal a sense the term ‘10,000’ world-system’ should be taken. Some say it may even refer to a Galaxy. I do not see that as a possibility, as 10,000 is a far cry from 200 billion (I would say the number is closer to 1000 billion, i.e. one trillion), and the Buddha would surely have used a different number, even if in a figurative sense. (The Buddha’s similes about how long an aeon is and the chances of being born human, for instance – the turtle and the yoke, the sand grains on His fingernail – are very factual: taking the trouble to do some calculation will confirm it). And globular clusters do not fit the bill on other considerations.

Now it is estimated that a supernova’s ‘kill zone’ lies in the space within 26 light years of the outburst. I have made some calculations: given the density of stars in our vicinity of the Galaxy, within that space (about 73,600 cubic light years) there would be only about 330 stars. But those are stars in the 4% universe! If the remaining mass of 96% were taken into account, the number would rise to 8,250 !! Of course, those ‘unseen’ stars, and, by extension, planets, would be fine-material (better than the scientific because poetic ‘dark’).

I am not saying that is how matter stands in actual fact, to be sure. I am only trying correlate the term ‘10,000 world-system’ with the latest scientific ‘facts’. I would very much appreciate the input of others.

“The big picture” is that these supernovae take place in galaxies with regular frequency, that is clear.. AND also that certain stars can expand into red giants and destroy the inner planets, before a supernova explodes ‘nearby’

Of immediate concern to us is this one particular star, the Sun. When the Sun reaches the red giant phase, the Earth will be destroyed THEREBY alone not by the supernova (if the supernova explosion had not taken place by then.) This is what I meant.

Destruction will take place one way or another,that is the ‘big picture’

Thank you.

I tried to post this about 3 hours ago but for some odd ‘hesitation’ with the Site, it did not go through. I am trying again now ( I kept a copy):

Hello there Lucas,

I take “many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion” as an indication of the time that has elapsed, the time it took for the bhikkhu to go through all those lives – that is, in aeon after aeon, not in just one.

As to your last para, I too see that ‘transferring’ to another planetary system should be no problem for the mind. Say one still needs experience from a human world, but he does not ‘fit in’anymore with the state of that humanity at that time. But this is not connected with the destruction of any planet in any way. It may also happen the other way around. There would be some here who are ‘not of this planet’. The Buddha SAW the inevitable transference to higher realms only following the destruction of the planet.

“In modern science, ALL star systems that CAN BE SEEN TODAY are supposed to have arisen in the Big Bang….. In modern science, ALL stars were created in a single “Big Bang.”

This is a bit out-dated, even in scientific circles. I myself had been under the impression that the view of science was that the Sun (for one star) is a second generation star. Now there are some who hold the view that it is a third-generation star; others that it could be a 1000th generation star!!

Buddha’s ‘version’ on the way to being proved correct! As will be the case over and over again with other theories even in other fields of enquiry.

Lal wrote:

A saṃvaṭṭa kappa (in saṃvaṭṭakappe) is the time taken to re-form the Earth. That means to re-form the whole 10,000 world systems.
– “Samvatta” (“san” + “vatta”) indicates the formation. As we know the word “san” means “adding up” or “aggregation.”

A vivaṭṭa kappa (in vivaṭṭakappe) is the time taken to re-form the Earth. That means to re-form the whole 10,000 world systems.
– “Vivatta” (“vi” + “vatta”) indicates “breaking up.”

In the second paragraph, don’t you mean: “A vivaṭṭa kappa (in vivaṭṭakappe) is the time taken to break up the earth?

What I meant was that without their knowing it, just considering the idea of a thousand-generation star comes closer(?) to Buddha’s model – because is ‘1000th-generation’ instead of ‘third-generation’ significantly closer to ‘infinitely-generating’?

Read ‘3-, at most 10- generation star’ and you have the model based on the Big Bang .Read infinite-generation star, and you have Buddha’s model.

I did not see that a hypothetical ‘1000th generation star’ does not fit in with science’s own Big Bang theory. Thanks Lal.

I can’t make the link between a time reference and the law of kamma. What I mean is that I absolutely agree that the destruction of anything in the universe is progressive, not from one moment to the other. But I can’t see why this will be a refutation to the possibility of any mind flow to continue its tendencies in another planet, another cluster, or whatever place is available at the moment of birth.
The entire universe is the field that contains nama and rupa, and as such nama can and will appear anywhere. Accumulated tendencies act like a strong magnet that will push the mind towards the corresponding/compatible realm of existence. The only exception is when this realm is not available. Only then the complexity of the law of kamma will push the being to another realm, lower or higher.
If we follow this logically and not purely and solely based on a 2300 years text (that we are not 100% sure if is authentic and not modified) + the fact that there are as many translations as traditions, the only moment in which a being will be “forcibly” reborn in a higher realm is in the contraction of the entire universe, that is when there is No More Realms in which rupa is stabilized enough to take form.

Lal:

– I didn’t said that there is an incongruence in the Tipitaka.
– I’m saying that there is an incongruence in the translation of your post, your matching with actual scientific theories, and the law of kamma
– This is important: the tipitaka is not our bible. It’s just a text that has to be taken as such. It has to be tested by personal experience. I do not believe in the Tipitaka, I have faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.

In the lineage that I practice (Goenka), the teachers (ancestors) of that lineage talk about contraction and expansion of the whole universe. This doesn’t mean that I blindly believe in what they said, but the question comes (a question that you didn’t refute yet): if there is more planets that host lifeforms, more galaxies, more “clusters”, more whatever names we wanna place for a physical realm… why should a being go up with the destruction of his cluster when there are innumerable more places around the universe in which the tendencies can take place?
Please answer this.

Furthermore, if beings go up with the destruction of the material realms, the inexistence of this last ones will have to be a requisite. The only possible instance in which this event could happen is in the absolute contraction of the whole Universe when there is no physical realm available anywhere.