Does A Sotāpanna Have Perfect Sila?

Hi Johnny,

“Can a lay person Sotāpanna really avoid idle chatter? ”
i’m trying it hard and i’m appreciating the results. It helps to silence the monkey/noisy mind, triggers “cooling down”, allows energy-saving and stimulates sati. It’s worth it, thus.

Which doesn’t mean either that i don’t say a word all day…

Lal has said in many posts that one does not stop all dosa akusala until one is an Arahant. Remember vaci sankhara is not only speech outloud, but conscious talking in the mind. Until manosankhara stops, it’s very challenging not to talk frivolously (talk w/o content or meaning) in the head.

What helps is analyzing the potential speech (outloud or in the mind) of how you may be hurting another or yourself. Frivolous talk sets the example that’s it’s acceptable and leads to bigger immoral acts (ie, gossip, slander, etc). What you don’t know about another person is what causes them to suffer.

Many like to talk about the weather, how bad it’s going to be. Some people have fears about severe weather and do all kinds of strange preparations for the possibility and suffer from mental agitation. So, weather which seems so mundane to one causes another to suffer and that’s immoral.

If what you have to say has meaning and useful (content to get a job done), then that’s not immoral as lay person. As a bhikkhu(ni), most talk that is relevant to one’s job is Dhamma, the most meaningful talk possible.

Donna

Hi

Y not said (at least in my email):

“At other times, minutes go by, we are not aware, we just get carried away.”

Precisely and that’s why it’s necessary to train what i would call “basic background awareness”. The more one trains it, the more one will be able to stop vacisankhara on-the-spot and /or move on to beneficial anapana-sati according Pure Dhamma.

Metta

Thank you Embodied.

My post does not show. It disappeared (to me, at least) after I had edited to correct the format. I am surprised somewhat that it was there for you to read.

y not

y not said:”My post does not show. It disappeared (to me, at least) after I had edited to correct the format. I am surprised somewhat that it was there for you to read.”

You have not read the following WARNING I had put out:

March 23, 2018: Do not try to edit posts older than an hour! It will get DELETED. Just make a new reply with what you want to revise.

This is the way the bb Press software (that runs this discussion forum) is setup. Please keep this in mind.

I was occupied most of yesterday. I will try to comment today or tomorrow. Y not can post his comment again if he wants to.

thanks Lal:

I edited only after about a minute or two at most. AND going back to the list of replies and voices, it said ‘ y not …minutes ago) but my post did not show.
So perhaps you will need to revise your warning, if it be not a one-off.

y not

….and it is still not showing. Just checking wether NOW it disappears too.

…No it has not. Must have been a one-off indeed.

Thank you johnny:

(for Lal’s attention as well)

Actually that is what I did. Retrieved my post going back to the Google history entry, pasted, copied and hit submit. The wonder was that then it said’duplicate’ ‘already submitted’ . Submitted, yes, but still it did not show.

y not

Here’s y not’s post from April 21, 11:53PM that got deleted.

y not wrote:

It is difficult. It the what we are here for, the assignment all of
us have to take on sooner or later.

It is difficult because vaci sankhara is not easy to control; at times a thought trend comes on, and if we become aware of it, we try to stop it there and then. At other times, minutes go by, we are not aware, we just get carried away.

And as far as the outer version of it goes, as opposed to meaningful and beneficial talk, 80% of all conversations among men centre around business/investment,slander with visible malevolent undertones at he base of it and useless chatter. Women are more pragmatic, more ‘grounded’ into their immediate day-to-day realities. This gives no opportunity to say something useful and meaningful (even here women are more open to this than men ) so one keeps silence.

So the outward side of it is not that difficult for me. I talk little by nature, at times too little (to my own detriment) It is the ‘conscious
talking in the mind’ which I have to grapple with.

Thank you Inflib for bringing this up.

y not

Inflib:

..and thanks once more. I did try to re-post. You read my
intention.

Metta

y not

Lal has said in several posts that a human bhava comes with its duration embedded in it,as it were, say 1000 years etc, say, 12 Jatis or so.

Now say someone attains the Sotapanna stage while in, say, the third Jati of a human Bhava. Does that mean that he will not attain the next stage, the Sakadagami stage, until he has lived through however many human Jatis are left in that Bhava, in order to ‘conform’ to and use up the anticipated lenght of that Bhava? Is he prevented?

Or, put another way,say he does attain the Sakadagami stage in that third Jati, will he still have to come back here until the human Bhava is exhausted before he ‘appears’ in a Deva realm?

y not

What is seela (sila) or moral conduct?

1. When one becomes a Sotapanna, two important things happens to ones’ mind:

– One becomes “sanditthiko” or “san” + “ditthiko” or “one who has seen “san” to some extent (enough to avoid apayagami citta from automatically arising under ANY circumstance).
– Because of that now one can avoid worst defilements that could make one eligible to be born in the apayas. Then one is said to have attained “sanvara”, or “san” + “vara”, meaning “warding off san” or “ability to stay away from san”. Sanvara in both Pali and Sinhala therefore, mean “being moral because one has seen san”.
– This is why the Buddha said, “sanvaratttena seelan” or “one becomes moral by removing “san” or defilements”. To put it another way, this means staying away from dasa akusala.

2. This is why “san” is such a key word; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.

– The ability to see “san” (defilements of greed, hate, ignorance that come to one’s mind) increases significantly when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, i.e., at the Sotapanna stage.

3. Of course, these are only the first stages of “sanditthiko” and “sanvara” attained at the Sotapanna stage. One gets to higher magga phala, will “see san” even better (sanditthiko), and thus become more moral or “sanvara”.

– When one gets to the Arahant stage, one has become fully “sanditthiko” and one is at the highest possible moral standards.

4. Today, people are judged by their outward appearances. If one talks slowly, walks slowly, one is ASSUMED to have high moral standards.

– On the other hand, a Sotapanna may run if needed, may even talk a bit harshly (not with malice), to get a point across to someone who “is slow to get it”, etc.
– I know people who write nice words, but I can sense their malice in the way they write.

5. Anyway, this is the basic idea. As one makes progress on the Ariya Path, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing dasa akusala, first at strong levels (capable of leading to births in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage; then eventually rebirth at any realm in this world at the Arahant stage. Thus, only an Arahant will have “perfect sila“.
   – Of course, one MUST forcefully stay away from any dasa akusala when one realizes one is about to do one. If one realizes that one just did such an act, one must make a determination to avoid it next time. That is how one makes progress.
   – Feel free to ask more questions if further clarifications are needed.

I may have just found the answer in the desana ‘Suffering in this life-according to Paticcasamuppada’, (10′ 15″ to 10′ 59″) but that refers specifically to those who attain Jhanas in a human Bhava (they appear in the appropriate realm immediately after the death of the body in which they experienced that or those Jhanas)

y not

Thanks Lal:

As you see, I had come across the desana on suffering probably as you were writing your reply.

‘One needs to keep reading relevant posts (AND KEEP CONTEMPLATING, not just reading)’ I find I am spending much more time contemplating, even when I am engaged in other matters, outdoors or indoors.

One thing that I was reminded of a few days ago: I heard the sms bleep on my mobile and at once SENSED ‘this is someone who does not text me often’.It turned out to be a woman from France whom I had met about 10 years ago and with whom there is no contact for long stretches of time, sometimes years. Someone she was attached to and who I too had met had died. About 8 years ago she sms’d me ‘out of the blue’ asking whether I was alright, and something HAD just happened to me ( I cannot recall what for sure). That is, now SHE had the sensation of an event having to do with me. In the second case I had it (because I felt too that probably it was not good news).

Where do these hunches come from? What is the source? Is it the gandhabba of the other sending a message, or one’s own, or some ‘one’ else?

thank you

y not

Hello all:

Does anyone have a clue as to who/what is at work (my post 23rd April) last 2 para’s. perhaps someone has had similar experiences; does not have to be an answer

thanks

y not

Hello y not,

Your answer is here in this YouTube video at about minute 7:30 (https://youtu.be/gUyqfUut8lA). I recommend reading Lal’s post Quantum Entanglement – We Are All Connected to get a taste of quantum mechanics. The above video and the other short video (https://youtu.be/X93XMwOG66E) in this post ties it all together.

Enjoy,
Donna

Hello there Donna:

Will go through those soon. I just want to thank you even
before doing that, just for taking the time.

I will let you know later

metta

y not

Lal:

‘Anyway, this is the basic idea. As one makes progress on the Ariya Path, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing dasa akusala, first at strong levels (capable of leading to births in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage;
‘Of course, one MUST forcefully stay away from any dasa akusala when one realizes one is about to do one. If one realizes that ONE JUST DID SUCH AN ACT, one must make a determination to avoid it next time.’ Your post, April 22, #5

What of the kamma vipaka generated by akusala 1) done BEFORE setting out on the Path and 2)by the ones while on the Path? Will that determination to avoid it in the future be in itself of any direct consequence in preventing it coming to the fore at the cuti-patisandhi moment? How is that to be prevented in both cases ? Is frequent Ariya Metta Bhavana, or anything else, advised?

Here I am reminded of the instance where Angulimala had killed a thousand people, yet still attained Arahanthood.

Thank you.

y not

@y not: Your questions are probably answered in the comment that I just posted in “Anantariya Kamma, Euthanasia and Assisted Suicides“.

If not, feel free to ask any remaining questions.