September 7, 2022 at 8:00 am #40181
September 7, 2022 at 4:26 pm #40197
I have rewritten that post to address your questions. Especially see #6 and the links there.
– A key point is that cuti-patisandhi takes place in a citta vithi that starts with an arammana coming to mind. Thus the starting point in PS is “vedana paccaya tanha.” As we have discussed, that is “samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha” in the niddesa version of PS.
– A patisandhi is grasped only if one generates “samphassa-ja-vedana.”
Please feel free to ask more questions. This is a bit complex subject.
September 8, 2022 at 5:56 am #40207
I see that I should have questioned this long before. I was reading again the post
Dukkha Samudaya Starts With Samphassa-Jā-Vedanā. It is clear that vipaka vinnana will happen first, when the nimitta appears in a door-freed-process. But the mind will analyse the object/nimitta and therefore contacts the pancakkhandha via manasikara cetasika. Thus I think the start is “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” where the mind adjusts the mindset in regard to gati/experience/memory.
What is purpose of the steps “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā (san)phassō”, if the PS starts at “vedana paccaya tanha”? I think the purpose of namarupa is to bring in “the way I like to see the world”, therefore salayatana are triggered and sanphassa can happen.
September 8, 2022 at 7:52 am #40209
Please also look at Vb6:
Tattha katamaṁ nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ? Cakkhāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, manāyatanaṁ — idaṁ vuccati “nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ”.
Tattha katamo saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso? Cakkhusamphasso sotasamphasso ghānasamphasso jivhāsamphasso kāyasamphasso manosamphasso—ayaṁ vuccati “saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso”.
Tattha katamā phassapaccayā vedanā? Cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manosamphassajā vedanā—ayaṁ vuccati “phassapaccayā vedanā”.
San gets incorporated with namarupa-ja-salayatana, salayatana-ja-phasso. “Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso” is samphassa.
September 8, 2022 at 9:16 am #40215
You did not catch the main point.
1. Most Paṭicca Samuppāda processes start with a sensory input making one’s mind attached to an ārammaṇa. For example, take a cakkhu vinnana arising due to an arammana coming through the eyes.
– First, “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.”
– Then, “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso,” ““samphassa paccayā vedanā,” “samphassa jā vedanā paccayā taṇhā,” “taṇhā paccayā upādāna.”
2. At this point, one has upādāna, i.e., the mind has “pulled that arammana in, and is bound to it.”
– It is at this point that one starts accumulating abhisankhara via “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” and so on come in after that. One starts visualizing related events (creating namarupa in mind) and using six ayatana to accumulate more kamma.
– That is discussed in “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna“; see #12 in particular. I just included that post in #6 of “Cuti-Paṭisandhi – An Abhidhamma Description.”
P.S. You wrote, “But the mind will analyse the object/nimitta and therefore contacts the pancakkhandha via manasikara cetasika. Thus I think the start is “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” where the mind adjusts the mindset in regard to gati/experience/memory.” But “gati/experience/memory” comes in at the “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana” step. That is what I was trying to explain.
– Yes. Grasping a new bhava happens at the “upādāna paccayā bhava.”
– But starting with an arammana (nimitta for the new bhava comes in as a sensory input) the mind gets to the “upādāna paccayā bhava” step WITHOUT going through the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step.
– In fact, what I wrote above does not apply to that last citta vithi. That process of going back to the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step happens during a lifetime while accumulating more kamma!
– I got confused about your reference to the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step. That step simply does not come in for the “maranasanna citta vithi” or the last citta vithi of a bhava.
September 8, 2022 at 12:39 pm #40219
Is there a description in Abhidhamma pitaka or in any commentary for this maranasanna citta vithi?
September 8, 2022 at 3:57 pm #40221
I have not seen a detailed description at the citta vithi level.
September 9, 2022 at 12:50 am #40227
It is very clear to me, that an external input triggers vipaka vinnana.
“Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.”
Dukkhasamudayasutta (SN 35.106) says:
“…Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ. Tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso.
Phassapaccayā vedanā; …”
When vipaka vinnana is established “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” happens. Only then “phassapaccayā vedanā” follows. How does “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” happen? Samphassa is “contact with defiled gati”. Thus mind incorporates san/gati into the cittas with the help of manasikara/cetana cetasika. That requires suitable namarupa. I don’t understand why salayatana can be bypassed in this case. Is this not PS?
“A key point is that cuti-patisandhi takes place in a citta vithi that starts with an arammana coming to mind. Thus the starting point in PS is “vedana paccaya tanha.”
That seems not right. There is at least (sam)phassa-ja-vedana before vedana-ja-tanha.
September 9, 2022 at 6:44 am #40238
I recommend reading the following two posts.
You may reword your questions after reading those posts.
– If anyone else can see the problem (or state it differently,) please feel free to comment.
P.S. I just realized that the following thread (esp. at the end) could be helpful:
“The role of memory in pañcadvāra and manōdvāra citta vīthi”
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