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Hello everyone,
First of all I want to thank Lal for creating and maintaining this website. It is an incredible piece of work and think i read around 100 posts in the last few weeks. I must have learned more in this few weeks than in the 10 years before, so thank you very much for your work.
So some of my last readings were about namarupa in a living being, vipassana and paticca samupadda and you wrote that sankhara creates an kamma vinnana, i.e, an expectation and this expectation manifests as an mental images in our head which is the Definition of namarupa (vinnana paccaya namarupa) in a living being. And I wondered if all other images in our head are also namarupa, like when I remember something? There must be kamma namarupa and vipaka namarupa?
My second question is what is the distinction between mental images and “thoughts” alias mental chatter? Are they the same? I mean I can think in words and I can think in images. Deaf people must think almost exlusively in images while (almost) blind people may still have some visual thoughts?
Are they just different expressions of my gati or is there a difference in their function?
Thank you
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Hello Julian,
Namarupa is a somewhat complex subject. Can you provide the link(s) to the post(s) that you read on it? I may need to revise them. In some old posts, I may have talked about vipaka vinna and kamma vinnana. But I realized that there is no such distinction. I can revise those posts and address your questions there.
Regarding the second question: Mental images (namarupa) arise first, and then ‘thoughts’ about them arise. So, they are not the same.
- Namarupa are mental constructions. The same object could generate slightly different namarupa in different people.
- That distinction can be significant among different species. For example, while humans see a rainbow with many colors, some animals only see it with fewer colors or in black and white.
Color is not an inherent property of light or objects themselves—both are colorless.
- The ‘color perception’, according to modern science, is explained well in the following video by a physicist.
- At 2.30 minutes, he says the process of how the brain interprets the signals received from the sensors at the back of the retina as ‘red’ is not understood by science.
- That is because ‘color perception’ does not occur in the brain. Data from the brain is sent to the ‘seat of the mind’ (hadaya vatthu), and it is the mind that perceives the ‘color of red’ in strawberries.
In the same way, taste is also mind-made. While humans like the taste of strawberries and don’t like the taste of grass, a cow likes to eat grass and avoid strawberries.
- Modern science has recently confirmed that our experiences with all five physical senses do not tally with reality; i.e., color, taste, etc., are mind-made (scientists say such ‘illusions’ are made by the brain).
- See, for example, “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless.”
Regarding your question: “Deaf people must think almost exclusively in images while (almost) blind people may still have some visual thoughts?”
- Deaf people are unaware of sounds. They do not even know anything about sounds. In the same way, those born blind have no perception of ‘sight/visuals’ (they don’t experience the world in ‘black and white’ either; vision is simply missing!).
- They make their decisions based on the other sensory faculties.
- I have firsthand experience of this issue. I had brain surgery to remove a non-malignant tumor from my brain. Before that, I had all my senses working well. During the operation, the nerves connecting the sensors in my nose to my brain got cut, so I don’t smell anything now. That sense faculty is simply absent now.
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“Namarupa is a somewhat complex subject. Can you provide the link(s) to the post(s) that you read on it? I may need to revise them. In some old posts, I may have talked about vipaka vinna and kamma vinnana. But I realized that there is no such distinction. I can revise those posts and address your questions there.”
I mainly got it from” Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime”, but you also wrote about kamma vinnana and vipaka vinnana here “Khandhā in Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda”. Why is there no such distinction? It made sense to me.
“Regarding the second question: Mental images (namarupa) arise first, and then ‘thoughts’ about them arise. So, they are not the same.”
Can I understand it as every namarupa being a new rupaupadanakhanda, inducing a new citta?
Also, over the years I often saw the 5 khandas being explained as a process, saying vedana follows the contact with a rupa and sanna following vedana or the other way around vedana following sanna. But all of this must rise together right? Without rupa and vinnana there is no contact and without contact no vedana and sanna and no cetana leading to sankhara. But a citta including contact, sanna, vedana and cetana arises as a whole so this cant be a process but mere dependent co-arising. Am i getting this right?
Thanks also for the rest of the explanation. Posts about distorted sanna were the very first I read when I came to this page, maybe it is time to read them again now with increased understanding.
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“Also, over the years I often saw the 5 khandas being explained as a process, saying vedana follows the contact with a rupa and sanna following vedana or the other way around vedana following sanna. But all of this must rise together right? Without rupa and vinnana there is no contact and without contact no vedana and sanna and no cetana leading to sankhara. But a citta including contact, sanna, vedana and cetana arises as a whole so this cant be a process but mere dependent co-arising. Am i getting this right? “
I will write it again because I realized it’s a bit confusing, and I dont know if I can edit the post.
So on the one side I heard that contact is the condition for vedana and vedana is the condition for sanna. Meaning vedana is kind of an alert that something happened and sanna is the following analyzing of “what is it”, i.e. the perception. Other sources said sanna is the condition for vedana because how is one supposed to have a feeling for something if one does not know what it is. Sankhara in both cases is the action based on this experience and vinnana the overall process, encompassing at least rupa, sanna and vedana and also the condition for sankhara (cetana).
Your explanation seems to be that contact leads to vedana but it is always neutral at first (except bodily sensations that are instantly pleasurable or painful (but also mind-made)). But with the distorted sanna it also distorts the contact and therefore also distorts the vedana (samphassaja vedana). The cetana becomes sancetana leading to abhisankhara and the vinnana is the series of cittas, encompassing this process.
The point I try to make is: since a citta arises as a whole there cant just be a vedana or a sanna on it’s own that is then followed by another khanda. Vedana and sanna must arise together and also together with the contact (encompassing the rupa and vinnana) right? I hope it is now clearer what I meant.
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I need to rewrite those posts. I will post them here once I do that.
- In the meantime, please read the following recent posts on the subject: “Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)– New Series”
- Please feel free to ask questions about those posts. Please refer to the specific post and the bullet number if that helps to clarify our questions.
P.S. You can edit a comment if done within an hour of the original post. The site administrators (myself and Seng Kiat Ng) can edit a post at any time if requested by the person who posted it. If a correction to a post is needed, please email me: [email protected]
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After reviewing the suggested posts above, I realized it is a good idea to write an introductory post tying up Paṭicca Samuppāda and pañcupādānakkhandha. Both are initiated by a sensory event and are affected by the ‘distorted saññā.’ I realized that many people (especially those who are new to this website) are not aware of the role played by the ‘distorted saññā.’
- I will try to do that in a couple of days.
- As I mentioned above, I also need to revise some old posts. I will post any updates here.
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“I realized that many people (especially those who are new to this website) are not aware of the role played by the ‘distorted saññā.’”
As someone who is new, I got forwarded to this topic very fast because many posts on this page, that a newby would be intetested in to read, adressed or linked to this topic. I think I got a good understanding of it in the very beginning but it expanded during the following weeks and the last realisation for me was that this inherent distorted sanna only works when the outside world is generated by the mind as well to fit together with the gati of a being.
I still struggle with the khandas in that way that I dont really understand what is happening right now in my mind and how the understanding helps with my depression. Your page seems to focus on reaching maga phalla but it hasnt really helped me yet in my everyday struggles, I hope it will get better with increased understanding. I will read your recommended links today and hope it will get clearer. Tying the PS with the pancaupadanakhandas seems like something I would be happy to read.
One thing I would like to reccommend is that you add kama and guna to the glossary because they were used very often but explained very rarely.
Thank you
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1. The deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings became clear to me only after I realized the huge role of the ‘distorted saññā.’ For us in ‘kama loka,’ it comes in various types of ‘kama loka saññā’ associated with all sensory inputs coming through our senses.
- With that understanding, I realized that there are no separate sets of ‘vipaka vedana‘ and ‘kamma vedana.’ In the same way, vinnana also cannot be separated into ‘vipaka vinnana‘ and ‘kamma vinnana.‘
- Even my teacher, Waharaka Thero, was also misled by the Tipitaka Commentary “Paṭicca Samuppāda Vibhaṅga.” Such categories are discussed there under ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda.’
- However, the only Paṭicca Samuppāda discussed in the suttas is the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- We know that almost all suttas were delivered by the Buddha. On the other hand, Commentaries (even those included in the Tipitaka) were written later. Therefore, we must give preference to the suttas, especially when there is an inconsistency.
- While the Tipitaka Commentaries are generally reliable, this specific part on ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ is in conflict with the suttas.
- I outlined a post recently on this subject, and it provides this background. It is only a draft, and I need to complete it: “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It“
2. The kamma accumulation process starts with a sensory input, and it is triggered by the ‘distorted saññā.’ It happens in two stages: ‘purāna kamma’ and ‘nava kamma’: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“
- As pointed out in “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It” the ‘vipaka stage discussed in ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ is the ‘purāna kamma’ stage discussed in the suttas.
- Thus, someone had made an error in composing a separate ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ in the“Paṭicca Samuppāda Vibhaṅga.”
- Even though I have been revising some posts with the incorrect interpretations, there are still some that require revision. Please keep this in mind when reading old posts. If you see ‘vipaka vedana‘ and ‘kamma vedana‘ or ‘vipaka vinnana‘ and ‘kamma vinnana‘ discussed, those posts need revision. I hope to get to them in time. I just don’t have enough time to get it done quickly.
3. If anyone would like to point out any errors in my interpretations (based on the Tipitaka), I welcome such comments. Please email me ([email protected]) or comment on this thread in the forum.
- Our goal is to sort out the correct teachings of the Buddha. Those teachings have been so much distorted over the years.
P.S. Julian asked for clarity on ‘kama guna.’ The following post could be helpful: “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).”
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I am in the process of rewriting some old posts on kamma and kamma vipaka.
- It is good to understand those two concepts before studying pancakkhandha or pancupadanakkhandha. I will get to that hopefully soon.
- In the meantime, please read the following posts and ask questions if anything is unclear.
Kusala/Akusala And Puñña/Apuñña Kamma | Pure Dhamma
Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)
Details Of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha | Pure Dhamma
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