March 15, 2018 at 11:07 am #14530
A Deva of the Tāvatimsa devaloka – the lowest heaven of the lower plane thus – reborning as a human, or the opposite meaning a human reborning as a deva in the referred realm, is this possible ?
March 15, 2018 at 12:28 pm #14531
Up until you get a fuller reply from somebody else,and also since there are no other answers yet:
I see no ambiguity myself( it is a deva dwelling in that plane) – unless the context in which you came across this gives rise to it. The Tavatimsa deva loka is the second one UP in the sense spheres excluding the human one. It is also called the Heaven of the 33. Are you sure this is the one you mean? At any rate, the case still holds whichever the realm of that deva.
The only instance I can see where this may not be clear would be when a deva or brahma ‘descends’ to the human realm to listen to a desana – but then it cannot be said that he is ‘reborn’ here.
March 15, 2018 at 1:31 pm #14532
Thanks for taking the time and for paying attention.
“It is also called the Heaven of the 33. Are you sure this is the one you mean? At any rate, the case still holds whichever the realm of that deva.” :
– Yes i’m sure.
March 15, 2018 at 5:34 pm #14536LalKeymaster
Embodied said: “A Deva of the Tāvatimsa devaloka – the lowest heaven of the lower plane thus – reborning as a human, or the opposite meaning a human reborning as a deva in the referred realm, is this possible ?”
In principle, any being can be born in any realm other than those reserved for the Anagamis; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
For example, a human can be reborn a deva or an animal; a deva can be born a human or animal; an animal can be born a human or deva, even though that is rare.
Y not said: ” The only instance I can see where this may not be clear would be when a deva or brahma ‘descends’ to the human realm to listen to a desana – but then it cannot be said that he is ‘reborn’ here.”
Beings in the higher realms (devas and brahmas) can come to our world any time for a “visit”. In the days of the Buddha many came to hear discourses. It is said that while only one of the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage while listening to the first desana, Dhamma Cakka Pavattana Sutta, millions of devas (including brahmas) attained various magga phala.
They can remain invisible to humans or become visible if they want to.
Both devas and brahmas have fine bodies that we cannot see (like gandhabbas). Deva bodies are more dense, but still cannot be seen by humans, unless they “present themselves”.
On an interesting side note, the King of Tāvatimsa, Sakka, became a Sotapanna while listening to a desana by the Buddha. So, he may be still there as a Sotapanna.
Waharaka Thero has mentioned several instances where there were signs that devas came to listen to his desanas. It is still a tradition in Asian countries to invite devas to come and listen before a bhikkhu starts delivering a desana.
March 16, 2018 at 9:18 am #14554
Yes,Sakka… until now I have not been sufficiently interested in Siddartha’s cosmogony mainly because i had the wrong idea that he never cared about the “gods”. But the more i read the more i’m captivated by his relationship with them.
thanks again for the precious info.
March 16, 2018 at 5:46 am #14541
Would it be possible to have the Thero’s desanas, or a few of them you deem to be of particular importance and of relevance on here, translated into English? How much would that detract from their impact and usefulness? (if it would). For one thing, he talks VERY fast !
March 16, 2018 at 6:56 am #14542LalKeymaster
That is essentially what I am doing in these posts. The deeper aspects of Dhamma, I learned from his desanas.
March 16, 2018 at 8:27 am #14546
Hm… I thought as much.
March 22, 2018 at 11:51 am #14726
It is said that all of us have been in the other realms during the beginningless samsara. Since the topic is about devas, I will stick to that realm specifically here.
It is also said that one attains those deva realms, 1: either strictly through the merits of some kamma in the past, in the case of a putthujjana or 2:on having attained the Sakadagami stage. The difference between the two cases is said to be that in the first case only will descent into the lower realms be possible in the future.
Now considering both these facts together it would appear that the ‘inhabitants’ of a deva realm, whether a particular one or in a general sense, will consist of both ‘classes’, riyas and Ariyas existing together, or will they be seperated into regions or sub-spheres, much like humans here are generally born into areas in line with their kamma, the well-to-do living decent lives in civilised countries while others struggle with malnutrition and lack of hygene in Asia and Africa?
Or will those Ariyas in the deva realm be unaware of the distinction (until perhaps until towards the end of that bhava), like those Sotapannas here who are unaware that they are Sotapannas?
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