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Hello Lal,
In the Thilakuna series (Ep05 on Dukkha, Ep06 on Anatta), Ven. Waharaka Thero says the three anupassanā are three entry points rather than a sequence. All three must be seen for magga phala, but one of them carries the other two, and which one leads depends on the practitioner. He grounds this in the three esa maggo visuddhiyā verses, each of which the Buddha calls a path to purification on its own.
His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.
Pure Dhamma runs the other ordering. In “Attato Samanupassati and the Sotapanna Stage” you write that understanding the anicca nature leads to comprehending the dukkha and anatta nature. In “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – According to Some Key Suttā” anicca is the key to the First Noble Truth, and the site’s treatment of dukkha and anatta builds on it.
My question is what kind of claim that ordering is.
If anicca-first describes how comprehension has to develop, then Thero’s Pannādhika route is a description of temperament and not of sequence, and the anatta material still has to be read downstream of anicca.
If anicca-first is your default presentation rather than a necessary order, then the site already contains an anattānupassanā route: “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?”, “Dasa Akusala and Anatta – The Critical Link”, “Anatta – No Refuge in This World”, the Anattalakkhana Sutta posts, and the attato samanupassati material. In that case, can those be taken as a starting point in their own right, with anicca and dukkha arrived at from them, and is there an order among them you would recommend?
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Hello Jaro,
1. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
2. Another point is mentioned in #13 of “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” To quote from there:
- It is only with the complete cessation of avijjā (at the Arahant stage) that one fully comprehends that all sensory experiences are mind-made. That is when one fully comprehends the ‘anatta‘ nature.
- For example, the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage when the Buddha described the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)” in detail over several days. However, they attained the Arahant stage by listening to the Buddha’s explanation of ‘anatta nature’ in the “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).”
3. Can you post the links to those two desanas you mentioned? I can take a look.
- Or you can email me the links: [email protected]
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Here are the passages:
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world)
“The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realise the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala) all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one.
The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā.
The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge, (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā.
The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”The same episode continues straight into the Sotāpanna fetters:
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering)
“the effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyse and understand one by one. There is another person; Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence lessness).”
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
Thilakuna Ep01 (the three verses, and the dependence order)
Thero states the same chain you cite:
“‘O lord, the ear is Anicca too. If something is Anicca, then is it sorrowful (Dukka).’ ‘If something is Anicca, sorrowful (Dukka) and ever changing to unwelcomed state (Viparinama) it is Anathta.'”
And then:
“That is to understand Buddha Dhamma, one must understanding Anicca or Dukka or Anaththa.
‘Sabbe Sankara Aniccathi. Yada Pagngnaya Passathi. Atha Nibbindathi Dukke. Esa maggo Visuddiya.’ This is one of the paths to Nibbana. …
Similarly, ‘Sabbe sankara Dukkathi. Yada Pagngnaya passathi. Atta Nibindathi Dukke. Esa Maggo Visuddiya.’ This is a path to Nibbana. …
There is another. ‘Sabbe Dhamma Anaththathi. Yada Pagngnaya passathi. Atta Nibindathi Dukke. Esa Maggo Visuddiya.’ … This too is a path to Nibbana.”Sooryalokaya Ep05 (What Kind of a Person is Sōvan Path-follower)
“There is a thing called Indriya Nānathvaya (the diversity in five mental elements); Shraddhā Indriya, Vīriya Indriya, Sati Indriya, Samādi Indriya. Pagnā Indriya. As a basis of continuous existence of a being, those who have the wisdom to understand Dhamma or qualified to understand Dhamma possess these five elements (Indriyas) in different levels.”
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
Links (You posted these on the forum in September 2020)
- Thilakuna Ep05, World and its real suffering: https://youtu.be/G8MLkEyGRNs
- Thilakuna Ep06, Deceptive view of the world: https://youtu.be/uE-Uqk4b7vo
- Sooryalokaya, What Kind of a Person is Sōvan Path-follower: https://youtu.be/hC7Aao-4VB4
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OK. I will take a look at them after posting the weekly post, either today or tomorrow.
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OK. I did not get to listen to all three. I listened to a part of Thilakuna Ep06. At the beginning of the desana, Thero mentioned that he extracted some concepts from the Tipitaka Commentaries. Also, I don’t know whether the translator translated Thero’s words correctly.
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Let us look at each one.
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world): “The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realize the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala), all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one. The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā. The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā. The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”
- I believe that is incorrect, according to the suttas, as I pointed out above.
- P.S. In particular, the statement, “The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā” does not make sense with the order of understanding: anicca, dukkha, anatta. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
- This is correct.
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering): “The effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyze and understand one by one. There is another person: the Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence-lessness).”
- This is also fine, since it says ‘attaining Nibbāna‘ and does not refer to a specific magga phala.
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence-lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
- I do not agree, per my previous reasoning. Now, I don’t know whether the Thero said these things in the desana. I have seen this issue before. The person doing the captions in English may not be correctly translating Waharaka Thero’s words/meanings.
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
- Correct. Of course, if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
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I think the other comments are OK, since the statements are vague. The following final one is not correct (again, it could be an issue with the translator):
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
- Understanding happens in the order of anicca, dukkha, anatta, per my Sutta references above. Of course, one may understand all three within a short time, like in the case of Ven. Bahiya.
I am open to discussing this further if the Sutta Pitaka provides evidence to contradict my statements. I no longer fully accept the explanations in the Commentaries (as I argued above), even though some are good and useful.
- I saw the same problem with the ‘Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada‘ that Waharaka Thero adopted from the Commentaries. See “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It.”
- The bottom line is that we must always give priority to the Sutta Piṭaka.
P.S. I removed the following from my first comment above in this post, since it may cause confusion.
- Here is another set of confirming suttas on miccha dithi, sakkaya ditthi, and attanuditthi. Attanuditthi is eliminated at the Arahant stage, when avijja is eliminated from the mind: “Micchādiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.165)“, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)“, and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.167)“. I have not discussed attanuditthi in a post. It is about eliminating ‘asmi mana‘ at the Arahant stage. The last three samyojana of asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja are removed at the Arahant stage.
- I think it is better to discuss those three suttas in a separate post.
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Forgive me for diverting the topic…
if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
I 100% agree with above, and that is how I know that I am not sotapanna, because I don’t understand anattha at all. But at the same time, its hard for me to differentiate between anicca and dukkha. I understand it as, anicca itself is dukkha or anicca is problematic only because it is dukkha and dukkha exists only because of anicca. If there is no anicca, there won’t be dukkha. Anatta is something I cannot comprehend at all.
Also, sir lal, I read this sutta just now: AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta. Out of those 10 perceptions 1st one talks about anicca and 2nd one talks about anatta, I think. 8th perception talks about dukkha, I think. Off course translation is not perfectly correct. So sir does this sutta says otherwise, against the sequence you said: anicca-> dukkha-> anatta as the sequence of magga-phala realisation?
Also is this sutta irrelevant to this discussion, since it talks about these 10 perceptions in the context of only – as after hearing them mendicant Girimānanda will be free from his illness. I am referring this sutta only because I found that it distinctly talks about 1st, 2nd and 3rd approach. I believed earlier as there are those 3 different ways/sequences for realization but end in same final result, but I see that you said, the sequence is always this anicca-> dukkha-> anatta, so I think my understanding holds no more. Can you clarify please?1 user thanked author for this post.
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In his first comment on this thread, Jaro wrote:
“His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.”
1. I started thinking about the possible connection between that statement and what I wrote at the end of last week’s post, “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” In #17, I wrote the following.
- In ‘rūpaṁ attato samanupassati,‘ ‘attato‘ means ‘as real (atta)’ and ‘samanupassati’ (‘sama’ ‘anu’ ‘passati’, where ‘passati’ means ‘to see’). Thus, it means ‘to see/believe’ that any rūpa we experience is real, i.e., that they are the same as those in the external world.
- If we literally take ‘anatta‘ to mean that ‘the world presented to us by our own minds is a falsehood’, then the above quote from Jaro makes sense. As we know, ‘atta‘ has several meanings, and it is one of them (the truth).
- If one with wisdom (Pannādhika in Jaro’s quote) can see that about our sensory experience, then of course, anicca and dukkha are the natural outcomes!
2. So, why did the Buddha not present it that way in the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15)”? It clearly states the following.
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @marker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
3. It is quite possible that the reason is the following. With the confirmation by modern science (in recent years) that our sensory experiences do not reflect the actual reality of them (i.e., our sensory experiences are mirages), that is exactly what ‘anatta nature’ means.
- One meaning of ‘atta‘ is ‘the truth’. The opposite, or untruth, is ‘na atta‘ or ‘anatta‘.
- So, it is possible that even at the time of the Buddha, those with penetrating wisdom could see the ‘ anatta nature ‘ directly, without first seeing the anicca or dukkha.
- But, for the majority at that time, the ‘seeing process’ probably started with ‘seeing the anicca nature’ first.
4. Saurabh’s comment on AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta is good, too.
- Of course, in that sutta also anicca is mentioned before anatta.
- I need to think a bit more, but I think the point is to see the fruitlessness and dangers of attaching to sensory experiences; anyway, one can. I agree that it is fine to first see the ‘anatta nature’ (which has been facilitated by modern science). In fact, in retrospect, that is what I literally pointed to with the post “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.”
5. By the way, that ‘correct seeing’, or Samma Ditthi, is only the first step. Attaining Arahanthood means eliminating ditthi, tanha, and mana. See “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi.” So, ‘seeing the anatta nature’ is a first step at the Sotapanna stage. It is fully established in the mind at the Arahant stage. See “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).” However, the first step of ‘seeing the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature’ of sensory experiences, or Samma Ditthi, happens at the Sotapanna stage.
- Then, one must follow the Noble Eightfold Path to eliminate tanha and asmi mana to attain the higher magga phala. Attaining the Sotapanna stage eliminates the three ditthi samyojana. Removing kama raga (and patigha) samyojana eliminates the first part of tanha at the Anagami stage. At the Arahant stage, complete elimination of tanha occurs with the removal of rupa raga and arupa raga samyojana. At the Arahant stage, ‘mana‘ (or ‘asmi mana samyojana‘) is also removed, along with uddacca and avijja samyojana.
6. In conclusion, Jaro’s comment at the beginning of the thread was excellent.
- So, the Tipitaka Commentary, in this case, seems to be valid. We should all further consider other related material in the Tipitaka to be certain.
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I have tried to find further evidence to support my claim.
SN 35.1 Ajjhattānicca, in full
Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ. Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ; yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā. Yadanattā taṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.
SN 22.15 runs identically over the khandhas: Vedanā aniccā yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama, neso ‘hamasmi, na me so attā”ti.
The key findings
SN 35.2 Ajjhattadukkha starts from the middle term with no anicca premise: Mano dukkho, yaṁ dukkhaṁ, tadanattā, yadanattā taṁ netaṁ mama, neso’hamasmi, na meso attā.
SN 35.3 Ajjhattānatta starts from the third term with no premises at all: Cakakhuṁ bhikkhave anattā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama, neso’hamasmi, na meso attāti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.
The Khandhasaṁyutta carries the same triad at SN 22.15 to 22.17, with SN 22.16 entering at dukkha: Saññā dukkhā yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanantā, yadanattā taṁ “netaṁ mama neso ‘hamasmi, na me so attā”ti.
Any one of the three terms serves as an entry point on its own, and each reaches netaṁ mama by itself. The three are not stages of a derivation where the second must be earned from the first.
Sāriputtas analysis from the Paṭisambhidāmagga gives the three terms with their sense-glosses in a single co-ordinate string: Rūpaṁ (vedanā, saññā, saṅkhārā, viññāṇa) atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ aniccaṁ khayaṭṭhena dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena anattā asārakaṭṭhenāti.
Three predicates of rūpa, in parallel, each with -aṭṭhena, “in the sense of”. Anicca in the sense of destruction. Dukkha in the sense of danger. Anattā in the sense of essencelessness. No yad…taṁ at all, so no sequence and no derivation.
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Hello Jaro,
1. Actually, the suttas you quoted are still in the anicca, dukkha, and anatta order. The “Ajjhattānicca Sutta (SN 35.1)” starts with the anicca nature: “Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ.” Then it refers to the dukkha and anatta nature resulting from that at marker 2,2: “‘
- Then the next sutta, “Ajjhattadukkha Sutta (SN 35.2),” starts at the dukkha stage and points to the anatta nature resulting from that in the next verse: “Yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā).”
- That leads to the “Ajjhattānatta Sutta (SN 35.3),” which focuses only on the anatta nature.
2. The other sutta, “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15),” is also in the same sequence.
3. There are other suttas that only discuss the initial anicca nature: “Cakkhu Sutta (SN 35.1)“: “Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi“
- The subsequent suttas in that series describe the anicca nature of other entities.
4. My point was that in the days of the Buddha, there were no scientific studies available to show that colorful things or tasty foods are not in the world. That required grasping the ‘anicca nature’ first.
- Only a few (Pannādhika, or with exceptional wisdom) could have grasped the ‘anatta nature’ first.
- Therefore, the sequence of grasping anicca, dukkha, and anatta in that order made sense for most people in those days.
- However, a few could grasp that sensory pleasures were not in the world, i.e., the sensory experiences are mind-made and are an ‘untruth‘ or ‘na atta‘ (anatta). They could understand what the Buddha meant by saying sanna is a mirage and vinnana is a magician. If one understood that, then its direct implication is that the world has no colorful or tasty things. See “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless .”
- However, over the past few decades, modern science has PROVEN that colorful, tasty… things do not exist in the world, as explained in the above link. That makes it easier to start seeing the ‘anatta‘ nature first. In the next post, I’ll explain that in simple terms.
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Only a few (Pannādhika, or with exceptional wisdom) could have grasped the ‘anatta nature’ first.
Therefore, the sequence of grasping anicca, dukkha, and anatta in that order made sense for most people in those days.It seems above part totally makes sense to me now.
However, a few could grasp that sensory pleasures were not in the world, i.e., the sensory experiences are mind-made and are an ‘untruth‘ or ‘na atta‘ (anatta). They could understand what the Buddha meant by saying sanna is a mirage and vinnana is a magician. If one understood that, then its direct implication is that the world has no colorful or tasty things. See “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless .”
Regarding above, I observed one thing, the sensual pleasures are real based on my experience (I have distorted sanna, right) but if I believe that it is just a lie somebody or something putting in my mind when I am not looking at my mind, it kind of proves it right away. Its like dreams are only real until we wake up. I mean, I don’t act on thoughts of sensual pleasures anymore but when the thoughts come, if I pay my attention to them, they themselves go away, kind of vaguely shows me that they are really lies. Although I don’t have experiential conviction, believing they are unreal/lies, actually helps get rid of them (thoughts) and continue the normal important work of the day instead of fighting with them mentally. Easier said than done off course.
lal sir, I have been meaning to ask you this about:
At the Arahant stage, complete elimination of tanha occurs with the removal of rupa raga and arupa raga samyojana. At the Arahant stage, ‘mana‘ (or ‘asmi mana samyojana‘) is also removed, along with uddacca and avijja samyojana.
So, what exactly remains if all of it is removed? I mean what would remain? Can we say, just nothing remains?
My understanding is that, in addition to being free from birth, cetana (I understand it as choice or intention as the forerunner of kamma or even kamma itself) of arahants is freed, so there is no death as well for them? Am I correct?
Lastly, how can one realize anatta?1 user thanked author for this post.
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Saurabh wrote: “Regarding above, I observed one thing, the sensual pleasures are real based on my experience (I have distorted sanna, right) but if I believe that it is just a lie somebody or something putting in my mind when I am not looking at my mind, it kind of proves it right away. Its like dreams are only real until we wake up.”
- Yes. The Buddha gave that exact analogy in the “Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22).”
- He provided various analogies to describe the fruitlessness of mind-made sensual pleasures: a skeleton (bone without meat is a better translation) …a scrap of meat …dry grass …a pit of glowing coals …a dream …borrowed goods …fruit on a tree …a butcher’s knife and chopping board …swords and spears …
- The translations in that link are not that good, and I tried to correct a few. But you can get the idea.
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Saurabh asked at the end: “So, what exactly remains if all of it is removed? I mean what would remain? Can we say, just nothing remains? My understanding is that, in addition to being free from birth, cetana (I understand it as choice or intention as the forerunner of kamma or even kamma itself) of arahants is freed, so there is no death as well for them? Am I correct?
Lastly, how can one realize anatta?”- All that is removed are defilements, based on raga, dosa, and moha/avijja. They give rise to various types of asobhana (immoral) mental factors (cetasika) in one’s thoughts. See “Cetasika (Mental Factors).” Only the sobhana cetasika can arise in an Arahant. Therefore, only ‘moral thoughts’ can arise in an Arahant.
- The ten rebirth bonds (samyojana) are the ones to be eliminated by comprehending the teachings of the Buddha. Once those are eliminated, raga, dosa, or moha/avijja, or various types of asobhana (immoral) mental factors (cetasika), cannot arise in the mind. See “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.”
- The ‘anatta nature’ is first ‘seen with wisdom,’ and that is when one becomes a Sotapanna. At that point, one would see all three: anicca, dukkha, anatta. However, that only eliminates three of the ten samyojana. Then a Sotapanna must cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path via the cultivation of Satipatthana. This requires a lot of reading and contemplation: See the “Buddha Dhamma – Systematic” section.
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Lal wrote: “However, a few could grasp that sensory pleasures were not in the world, i.e., the sensory experiences are mind-made and are an ‘untruth‘ or ‘na atta‘ (anatta). They could understand what the Buddha meant by saying sanna is a mirage and vinnana is a magician.”
That’s interesting. When it comes to Anatta, I mainly associate it with the essenceless nature of Paticca Samuppada. When something drifts, decays and vanishes regardless of my command, what substance does it have?
Saurabh wrote: “Anatta is something I cannot comprehend at all.”
I am sorry to hear this, Saurabh. I know you asked Lal how to realise Anatta, but I’d like to try to give you at least an idea.
See, there is no mind in the universe with the atta capacity that can extract anything substancial from anything belonging to this world, nor one that can command the five aggregates as desired. Nothing inside the 31 realms has anything in it to be had, which is asārakaṭṭhena, essencelessness. This covers what you have banked as much as what you reach for: accumulated kammic energy and the good rebirths it buys are of the same nature, because every such existence ends and the fall follows. When the holding is over, nothing remains that was gained, and the holder is left without refuge.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Yes. Different people may see the ‘anicca, dukka, anatta nature’ of the world (and the ‘mind-made sensory pleasures’) in different ways.
- Once, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus who had declared the attainment of the Sotapanna stage how to describe it. Each one provided a different description of the Sotapanna stage.
- That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave the analogy of asking someone to describe a tree with a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red, resembling pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (a specific, distinctive shape). Some people would identify the tree by its unique trunk, while some others would describe it by its flowers. Others might identify it by the uniqueness of its leaves. But they all had seen the tree! See “Kiṁsukopama Sutta (SN 35. 245).”
- The following is the translation of the same sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi: “35.245. The Kiṁsuka Tree.” Both translations provide the basic idea.
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See, there is no mind in the universe with the atta capacity that can extract anything substancial from anything belonging to this world, nor one that can command the five aggregates as desired. Nothing inside the 31 realms has anything in it to be had, which is asārakaṭṭhena, essencelessness. This covers what you have banked as much as what you reach for: accumulated kammic energy and the good rebirths it buys are of the same nature, because every such existence ends and the fall follows. When the holding is over, nothing remains that was gained, and the holder is left without refuge.
Thank you for the explanation. It is dangerous for me though. As far as I understand, if one truly understands anatta (experientially), one is sotapanna, it is kind of like, if one has ‘Ariya’ jhanas one is anagami at that point. So when I look at myself I can clearly see that I don’t understand anatta and I am not ‘Sotapanna’. Another thing is, as I understand it, realizing anatta is like seeing the final refuge, witnessing the shore, witnessing truth finally. So in my opinion as long as one does not realize anatta, one is like a virtual or video game character, who has start, an end, hence dukkha (or even vice versa). I believe it without doubt, but it is more like belief I got due to my past good kamma, but not experiential realization, yet.
When I try to observe myself, I see vulnerability everywhere, for example this body, which is home for so many suffering possibility, it is unreliable, in other words, our body is not unbreakable or unconditioned, it is breakable and conditioned. Even the breathing is vulnerability as I have dependence on it, breathing stops, I die. So it is like – I am not suffering, I am the ‘suffering’ or it is like – I am not experiencing dukkha, I am the ‘Dukkha’. I don’t see anything that does not have vulnerability. I believe, realizing anatta would be like witnessing invulnerability or unconditioned or truth, for the first time. I don’t think I can ever believe this statement, “Everything is ok”, ever in my life, until I experience invulnerability. Doesn’t matter even if all the material desires are fulfilled, some vulnerability will always be there, even if everything is solved, sickness, old age and death is there, I will have to face it some day if not today. this realisation that ‘There is vulnerability everywhere’ or ‘I don’t have realization of anatta’, will never leave me. Although I still believe whatever it is, it is positive and not negative.
borrowed goods
I have thought about this as well lal sir. I always understood that, the craving or raga is inside not outside, outside appearances or forms are just means. So the ‘borrowed goods’ seems actually another perfect analogy. Even engagement in sensual pleasures just makes that urge go away, it does not give satisfaction, because we are using borrowed goods. It makes sense, because if I see one enchanting form, it is not the form has special power, rather I have granted that form a special power due to my defective source code. Its like my internal source code has set to actually react and respond in a non-ariya way, the moment such appealing form input is registered by eyes. So its the source code inside which interprets outside and gives reaction which inevitably becomes cause of suffering in the long run, and in the short run, it is unreliable as the input is coming from outside! Ignorance is bliss, i.e. it is happiness only until I don’t observe this source code’s automated reaction to the input of appealing form through eyes, but once I observe, I realize that it is a set-up! I am just trying to use borrowed goods to achieve something, that these borrowed goods can never help me achieve. To be honest, I feel deceived.
The ‘anatta nature’ is first ‘seen with wisdom
I am just realizing that, how difficult above actually is.
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Saurabh you do not need to be Sotapanna (as Dvihetuka for example) to “join” the Sangha and Dhamma stream, two stages below Sotapanna are Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī as Buddha said “nobody who has genuinely entered this teaching leaves empty-handed” in MN22
MN 70 (Kīṭāgiri Sutta) defines them by faculties. Both types are said to lack the formless liberations and to have taints not yet destroyed. The dhammānusārī has tathāgatappaveditā dhammā paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṁ khamanti plus the five indriya — saddhā, viriya, sati, samādhi, paññā. The saddhānusārī has saddhāmattaṁ hoti tathāgate pemamattaṁ plus those same five faculties.
Note the qualifier in both: mattaso, mattaṁ — “to a degree,” “only some.” Neither is being credited with much. What they are credited with is having the five faculties present and functioning.
Of both the Buddha says: appamādena karaṇīyaṁ — for this one there is still work to be done with diligence. He then names the three conditions under which it gets done: resorting to suitable dwellings, associating with kalyāṇamitta, and bringing the faculties into balance.
What must be actually fulfilled can be found in MN 70 which gives the sequence directly, and it answers in twelve steps:
saddhājāto upasaṅkamati — one in whom faith has arisen approaches;
upasaṅkamanto payirupāsati — approaching, he attends on the teacher;
payirupāsanto sotaṁ odahati — attending, he lends ear;
ohitasoto dhammaṁ suṇāti — lending ear, he hears the Dhamma;
sutvā dhammaṁ dhāreti — having heard, he retains it;
dhatānaṁ dhammānaṁ atthaṁ upaparikkhati — he examines the meaning of what he retains;
atthaṁ upaparikkhato dhammā nijjhānaṁ khamanti — examining the meaning, the teachings become acceptable through pondering;
dhammanijjhānakkhantiyā sati chando jāyati — zeal springs up;
chandajāto ussahati — he applies effort;
ussahitvā tuleti — he weighs and scrutinizes;
tulayitvā padahati — he strives;
pahitatto… paramaṁ saccaṁ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca naṁ paṭivijjha passati — striving, he realises the ultimate truth and penetrates it with wisdom.Step 7 is the dhammānusārī. Dhammā nijjhānaṁ khamanti is verbatim the definition.
Also about saddhānusārī – Per SN 25.1 you cannot qualify as saddhānusārī by fervor, by belonging, or by trusting a teacher. You qualify by having confidence in a particular claim about cakkhu, sota, ghāna, jivhā, kāya, mano — that they are of anicca, vipariṇāma, aññathābhāva nature.
It’s slightly off-topic, but from what I read, you seem to be close to the level of saddhānusārī. I’m just posting this so you don’t get discouraged; even if you cannot get a full understanding, you will not leave this world empty-handed.
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Buddha said “nobody who has genuinely entered this teaching leaves empty-handed” in MN22
Yes, it is really wonderful. I am in fact not empty handed, I have received many benefits.
I’m just posting this so you don’t get discouraged; even if you cannot get a full understanding, you will not leave this world empty-handed.
Thank you for your kindness! I might have sounded discouraged, but I am very positive actually. I was not discouraged but in any case your comment is very encouraging!
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Saurabh@2110: “Yes, it is really wonderful. I am in fact not empty handed, I have received many benefits.” “…but I am very positive actually. I was not discouraged but in any case your comment is very encouraging!”
Hope this isn’t off-topic, but in try and heap on the encouragement:
I offer in mudita that I, too, share your abundant joy and assurance after FINALLY finding the only Dhamma that has had (I know no better terms) measurable effects on how I feel within and how I behave without. Wish I found and more skillfully followed this site and forum years back! You wouldn’t believe how many times my dad (for example) has told me I’ve “changed for the better” this year, even though I know I’ve barely achieved anything.
I’d be here all day, and I bet you would too, if I were to comprehensively list even a sixteenth-part changes in behavior and belief practicing Buddha Dhamma has had on me in a relatively short time. It’s like I’ve spent my whole life fumbling in the dark without a clue until I stumbled upon the only three gems with enough light to show the way out. I would love to somehow share the fruits of how much I’ve gained with even my novice practicing (and frequent faceplanting!) so that my pain can be somebody’s hope someday.
May we all know the heart’s release, may we all reach the freedom of peace. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
Born in a dark class, seeking brighter results.
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