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This is what Mr. Hojan asked me to convey.
He said:
“Vibhava tanha has two meanings.
The first is the tanha related to uccheda ditthi, which is eradicated at the sotapanna stage.
The second meaning of vibhava tanha, which is opposite to bhava tanha, is the tanha that seeks to eliminate the ‘conditioned bhava (kamma bhava and uppatti bhava)’ that can only be removed through the cessation of kammic energy. This form of vibhava tanha is eradicated at the arahant stage.
An arahant no longer creates kamma bhava, but, until attaining parinibbana, they are still subject to the vipaka resulting from previous kamma bhava.
Similarly, although an arahant no longer creates uppatti bhava, they still experience the effects of existing uppatti bhava until attaining parinibbana, which results in the vipaka from previous kamma bhava.
When an arahant, unable to endure physical pain, ends their physical existence (attaining parinibbana) through suicide, it is not an intention driven by vibhava tanha.
However, when a puthujjana or sekha, unable to endure physical pain, ends their physical existence (continuing samsara) through suicide, it is an intention driven by vibhava tanha.
Kāma Tanhā, Bhava Tanhā, Vibhava Tanhā
Could you add the content related to the second meaning of vibhava tanha to the post?”
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You wrote: “The second meaning of vibhava tanha, which is opposite to bhava tanha, is the tanha that seeks to eliminate the ‘conditioned bhava (kamma bhava and uppatti bhava)’ that can only be removed through the cessation of kammic energy.”
- Kammic energy can never be “removed” or “ceased.” P.S. Once energy is created, it will either bring about an effect (if the conditions are satisfied) or fade with time. For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people, but since he had attained Arahanthood, that kammic energy could not bring a “bhava” during his life or at death.
- Accumulated kammic energy cannot bring a rebirth (or even any temporary bhava during a lifetime) for an Arahant because the “upadana paccaya bhava” step (together with all the steps in PS) does not work.
So, I don’t see a “second meaning to vibhava tanha.”
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Tattha katamā tisso taṇhā? Kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.
- Bhavadiṭṭhisahagato rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “bhavataṇhā”.
- Ucchedadiṭṭhisahagato rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “vibhavataṇhā”. Avasesā taṇhā kāmataṇhā.
- Kāmadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “kāmataṇhā”.
- Rūpadhātuarūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “bhavataṇhā”.
- Ucchedadiṭṭhisahagato rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “vibhavataṇhā”. Imā tisso taṇhā.
Tattha katamā aparāpi tisso taṇhā? Kāmataṇhā, rūpataṇhā, arūpataṇhā.
- Kāmadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “kāmataṇhā”.
- Rūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “rūpataṇhā”.
- Arūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “arūpataṇhā”. Imā tisso taṇhā.
Tattha katamā aparāpi tisso taṇhā? Rūpataṇhā, arūpataṇhā, nirodhataṇhā.
- Rūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “rūpataṇhā”.
- Arūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “arūpataṇhā”.
- Ucchedadiṭṭhisahagato rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “nirodhataṇhā”. Imā tisso taṇhā.
Based on this information, we can understand the following:
bhavataṇhā
- Related to bhavadiṭṭhi.
- Concerned with being reborn in the rupa or arupa dhatu.
- Similar to the combination of rūpataṇhā and arūpataṇhā.
vibhavataṇhā
- Related to ucchedadiṭṭhi.
- Similar to nirodhataṇhā.
If a Sotāpanna eliminates ucchedadiṭṭhi, and thus vibhavataṇhā is removed at the Sotāpanna stage, why isn’t bhavataṇhā eliminated as well? Isn’t a Sotāpanna attained by eliminating all diṭṭhis? What is bhavadiṭṭhi? Is it unrelated to sakkaya ditthi? Also, if there are any important points that can be found in this Vibhanga material, I would appreciate it if you could share them. Thank you.
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Let me put your questions in a different order.
“What is bhavadiṭṭhi?”
- I don’t think there is such a term in the Tipitaka.
” Isn’t a Sotāpanna attained by eliminating all diṭṭhis?”
- No. One becomes a Sotapanna by removing the ten types of miccha ditthi and sakkaya ditthi. They may have other minor ditthis.
“If a Sotāpanna eliminates ucchedadiṭṭhi, and thus vibhavataṇhā is removed at the Sotāpanna stage, why isn’t bhavataṇhā eliminated as well?”
- Why do you think the removal of uccheda ditthi leads to the removal of bhava tanha?
- Uccheda ditthi means not believing in the rebirth process. Would not one with uccheda ditthi have kama raga (and thus bhava tanha)?
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“I don’t think there is such a term in the Tipitaka.”
- Bhava ditthi Tattha katamā bhavadiṭṭhi? “Bhavissati attā ca loko cā”ti—yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṁ …pe… vipariyāsaggāho—ayaṁ vuccati “bhavadiṭṭhi”.
- But I don’t know what ‘Bhavissati attā ca loko cā‘ means. Would you let me know what it means?
“Why do you think the removal of uccheda ditthi leads to the removal of bhava tanha?”
- I don’t think the removal of uccheda ditthi leads to the removal of bhava tanha.
- What I wanted to ask is, if one becomes a Sotapanna by eliminating all ditthi (wrong views), why does bhava ditthi still remain?
- If a Sotapanna stage is not achieved through the elimination of all ditthi, then the issue of bhava ditthi remaining is resolved.
“Uccheda ditthi means not believing in the rebirth process. Would not one with uccheda ditthi have kama raga (and thus bhava tanha)?”
- I think that bhava tanha refers to rupa raga and arupa raga because in the Vibhanga it says, ‘Rūpadhātuarūpadhātupaṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “bhavataṇhā”’. Therefore, when there is kama tanha, there is no bhava tanha.
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You are correct. The term “bhava diṭṭhi” appears in a few suttas. I should have looked it up.
- My way of learning is to understand concepts rather than looking up definitions. Your initial question can be resolved by examining what “bhava” means.
Your initial question was: “If a Sotāpanna eliminates ucchedadiṭṭhi, and thus vibhavataṇhā is removed at the Sotāpanna stage, why isn’t bhava taṇhā eliminated as well?”
- One with uccheda ditthi does not believe in rebirth. However, they have kama raga. Does not kama raga lead to “bhava” within this lifetime? Specifically, they are in “kama bhava” during this lifetime. One cannot be in a bhava without having tanha for it.
- In other words, “kama tanha” leads to “kama bhava.” In PS, “tanha paccaya upadana,” “upadana paccaya bhava.”
- P.S. In fact, a Sotapanna has not removed not only kama tanha, but also rupa tanha and arupa tanha. Kama tanha (and kama raga) is removed at the Anagami stage and rupa and arupa tanha (associated with rupa raga and arupa raga) removed only at the Arahant stage.
In the second comment you wrote: “What I wanted to ask is, if one becomes a Sotapanna by eliminating all ditthi (wrong views), why does bhava ditthi still remain?”
- As I mentioned in my first comment, a Sotapanna has not removed all of ditthis. One becomes a Sotapanna by removing the ten types of miccha ditthi and sakkaya ditthi. They may have other minor ditthis.
- However, bhava diṭṭhi does not remain in a Sotapanna.
- Sotapanna has kama raga/kama tanha (and thus remains in kama bhava), not because he has bhava diṭṭhi. As we have discussed, the root cause of kama tanha is “distorted sanna.”
- We are bound to this world by ditthi, tanha, and mana. The ten samyojana can be divided among them as follows: Three “ditthi samyojana“: sakkaya ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbata paramasa. Tanha associated with four: kama raga, patigha, rupa raga, arupa raga. Mana is associated with three: asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja.
You wrote: “I think that bhava tanha refers to rupa raga and arupa raga because in the Vibhanga it says, ‘Rūpadhātu arūpadhātu paṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “bhava taṇhā”’. Therefore, when there is kama tanha, there is no bhava tanha.”
- Based on my above clarification, I don’t see how that definition can hold. We need to keep in mind that there could be minor issues with the Commentaries (Vibhanga is a Commentary included with the Tipitaka; this is correct most of the time). However, I don’t see how bhava tanha can be restricted to rupa loka and arupa loka.
- It is possible that the confusion comes from the categories in the following sutta: “Taṇhā Sutta (Iti 58)“: “Tisso imā, bhikkhave, taṇhā. Katamā tisso? Kāma taṇhā, bhava taṇhā, vibhava taṇhā—imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso taṇhā”ti. So, it is correct that there are those three types.
- However, as I understand, kāma taṇhā is part of bhava taṇhā due to the reasons I provided above. Also see “Kāma Tanhā, Bhava Tanhā, Vibhava Tanhā.”
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