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Hello venerable Lal sir. I read the latest post, ‘37 Factors of Enlightenment – Meditation To Attain Arahanthood‘. I have few comments and possibly questions.
Under the heading, ‘Pañca Indriya First’, there is following line:
“7. Cultivation of the 37 factors starts with the ‘arising of the Pañca Indriya’ at the Sotāpanna phala moment.”I see it is implying that, it is only sotapanna who has Panca Indriya. In other words, No puthujjana has Panca Indriya, until they become sotapanna. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion?
Then this line:
“11. Both avijjā and pañca nīvaraṇa are absent while the mind of a Sotāpanna is in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi. Thus, Paṭicca Samuppāda processes (and, thus, pancupadanakkhandha processes) do not take place there.”and this line:
“That allows one to engage in insight meditation (Vipassanā) to attain higher magga phala (Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant). The Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi is not devoid of thoughts; it is devoid of ‘defiled thoughts’ based on avijjā. In other words, avijjā does not arise while in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.”and this heading (and its contents):
“Magga Phala Attained in Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi”and also this heading (and its contents):
“Bōdhipakkhiya – Toward Bodhi or Nibbāna”These 4 references, as per my understanding, are implying that satipatthana bhumi is kind of same as ‘pure abodes’, or at least close to it if not same. Am I correct?
Also, the only completely new thing I realized while reading this post, is that ‘bodhi‘ means ‘Nibbāna‘! I never even thought that these terms are referring to the same thing!
Btw, its not that rest of the things were something I already knew/realized, I meant that I totally accepted them without any doubt or argument.Also sir, I reread that chart, in order to understand ‘samapatti’, I read the post titled ‘Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti’ and some of your responses from forum discussion under the title, ‘Difference between “Arahant phala samapatti” and “Nirodha samapatti” ?’.
It says that “Parinibbāna state is just like nirōdha samāpatti. The only difference is that there is no “coming back” to this world upon entering Parinibbāna.”
So once, ariya attains parinibbana, is there no way to reach them?
I always understood it as, for those who have attained parinibbana, there is no coming back to this world of suffering for them. From the putthujana’s pov or from someone who is born and lives in this world (this world means 31 realms or this world of suffering), those who have attained parinibbana are as good as dead!? Is that it sir?
I understand for those who have attained parinibbana, we cannot say anything like this happened to them or that happened to them. But, as far as I understand, we can certainly say that, they are free from all the suffering/dukkha, forever and will never come back to this world. When first time I realised this part (of not coming back), it made me cry. I read that sutta, where all bhikkhuni/bhikkhus come to buddha to pay respect to the buddha for the last time, before attaining parinibbana. It felt like, I could literally view those scenes with more than 50% accuracy and they were really heart-breaking for me.
Does that mean, even those who have attained parinibbana, cannot reach to others who have attained parinibbana? This seems the case since all those monks paid their last respects to buddha before attaining parinibbana.
But at the same time, when I have experienced the dukkha, the real one, which was fairly unbearable for me (I am referring to physical intense pain due to some diseases such as kidney stones, etc), I felt sad for me but I really felt happy for all those who have attained parinibbana.
In short, I feel, it is real end of my contact to someone who has now attained parinibbana. But at the same time, as per my understanding, arahant is not just free from birth, but also free from death, so even if they will never come back to this world, we cannot say they are ‘dead’!
I will stop blabbering, my question is, is the answer to this question, “Can one (particularly ariya, because I have conviction that, at least in the context of this question, puthujjana is out of the question) reach to those who have attained parinibbana?”, outright ‘No’ or is it same as the answer to question “What happens to arahant after parinibbana?”, which is – ‘no answer applies’ or something?
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Saurabh asked: “I see it is implying that, it is only sotapanna who has Panca Indriya. In other words, No puthujjana has Panca Indriya, until they become sotapanna. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion?”
- That is correct. See the explanation below.
Saurabh asked: “These 4 references, as per my understanding, are implying that satipatthana bhumi is kind of same as ‘pure abodes’, or at least close to it if not same. Am I correct?”
- No. “Pure Abodes” (Suddhāvāsa) are the five highest realms of the rūpa loka reserved for Anāgāmis.
- Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi can be accessed by a living Sotāpanna (or any Noble Person) after cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna.
- The mind of a puthujjana is always covered by panca nivarana, and therefore, it cannot ‘think clearly’ and thus cannot engage in Vipassanā. Even the mind of a Sotāpanna who has not cultivated Satipaṭṭhāna is covered by panca nivarana.
- Yes. A puthujjana does not have any of the ‘five faculties’ of ‘pañca Indriya‘, which are needed to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna.
- As long as a mind is inside the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi, panca nivarana do not arise for that duration. That is why one must first cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna to be able to engage in Vipassanā to attain higher magga phala.
Saurabh asked: “So once ariya attains parinibbana, is there no way to reach them?”
- ‘Parinibbana‘ can be interpreted in two ways. (i) An Arahant has eliminated all ten samyojana and thus has attained Nibbana or has reached ‘full Nibbana‘ (‘pari‘ in ‘Parinibbana‘ means ‘full’ or ‘complete’). Thus, reaching the Arahant stage can be called ‘Parinibbana‘. (ii) The death of an Arahant is also called ‘Parinibbana‘. But only the physical body dies at that point. The ‘mental body’ had attained ‘Parinibbana‘ at the moment of attaining the Arahant stage.
- Of course, an Arahant‘s (or the Buddha’s) physical body keeps the ‘mental body’ from dying. As long as the physical body lives, the ‘mental body’ cannot die. That is why the Buddha could teach Dhamma to others!
- Thus, we can ‘reach’ (and communicate with) an Arahant until their physical body dies.
- However, once the physical body dies, an Arahant does not/cannot ‘come back to this world’. They are separated from the suffering-filled world forever.
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No. “Pure Abodes” (Suddhāvāsa) are the five highest realms of the rūpa loka reserved for Anāgāmis.
Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi can be accessed by a living Sotāpanna (or any Noble Person) after cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna.
The mind of a puthujjana is always covered by panca nivarana, and therefore, it cannot ‘think clearly’ and thus cannot engage in Vipassanā. Even the mind of a Sotāpanna who has not cultivated Satipaṭṭhāna is covered by panca nivarana.Understood sir.
Thus, reaching the Arahant stage can be called ‘Parinibbana‘.
oh, got it. So this is why anagami is roughly translated as ‘non-returner’, whereas arahant is sometimes translated as ‘Thus gone one’, as he is gone already the moment he became arahant. In any case I got it.
Thus, we can ‘reach’ (and communicate with) an Arahant until their physical body dies.
However, once the physical body dies, an Arahant does not/cannot ‘come back to this world’. They are separated from the suffering-filled world forever.The last sentence above is heart-breaking as well as thrilling. I felt piti reading the last sentence. So nibbana must be really good, that is why it is valued above all.
It just means that, one should value ariyas, because as long as one is puthujjana, one will meet puthujjanas again and again, but once ariya is gone (attained parinibbana), they are gone forever.
So when you said, that ‘They are separated from the suffering-filled world forever’, does that mean, they could be anywhere where there is no suffering? Off course, it is not possible to imagine a world which is free from suffering. But I believe it is beyond 31 realms of existence.
I also imagine that happiness of nibbana must be really highest and purest (param) and it must be higher than what any highest happiness found in 31 realms. But I am saying all this through faith and understanding, not through experience.
(ii) The death of an Arahant is also called ‘Parinibbana‘. But only the physical body dies at that point. The ‘mental body’ had attained ‘Parinibbana‘ at the moment of attaining the Arahant stage.
So, death is not a big deal for an arahant (instead it is relief I guess), it is just big deal for those are still living in 31 realms as they will not be able to see that arahant ever. In other words, this transition, being able to contact arahant and then not being able to contact him, is only for puthujjanas or any one who is still within 31 realms of existence. For arahant, he was already gone when he became arahant.
Sir, by ‘mental body’ are you referring to ‘citta’? Also, what is the difference between citta and mind?
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Yes. A puthujjana does not have any of the ‘five faculties’ of ‘pañca Indriya‘, which are needed to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna.
So basically puthujjana is automated virtual game character, who is having no self but a ultimate belief that he has self, and keeps on suffering. Doesn’t even have the faculties to get out of this mess. Makes sense.
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Saurabh asked: “Sir, by ‘mental body’ are you referring to ‘citta’? Also, what is the difference between citta and mind?”
- ‘Citta‘ means a ‘pure thought’. However, citta become mano when they are first defiled in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage; then then further defile to vinnana in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage. However, in many cases, ‘citta‘ is loosely refered to as ‘thoughts’.
- The ‘seat of the mind’ (or where citta arise) is called ‘hadaya vatthu‘ in Abhidhamma. It is smaller than an atom in science. That ‘hadaya vatthu‘ is associated with the ‘manomaya kaya‘ or the ‘mental body’. This is why the manomaya kaya (which is called a ‘gandhabba‘ for a human) is invisible. When the gandhabba comes out of the physical body in Near-Death Experiences (NDE), it is invisible to other humans. See “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind“.
- For an Arahant, citta arise, but they don’t degrade to mano or vinnana.
- Don’t worry if you don’t really understand that. It will become clear later.
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By ‘suffering-filled world,’ I did not necessarily imply that everyone in the human realm experiences dukkha vedana all the time. Some who are born rich and healthy may live most of their life without significant suffering, as they perceive it. Those in the Deva or Brahma realms hardly experience any ‘suffering’ as they perceive it.
- However, in the long run, all puthujjana (in any realm, including the Deva and Brahma realms) are mostly reborn in the apayas. That is when the dukkha vedana becomes unbearable. This is why attaining the Sotapanna stage is critical.
- I plan to discuss that in detail in upcoming posts. This is why ‘uccheda ditthi‘ (the wrong view that there is no rebirth process) is the most dangerous.
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Don’t worry if you don’t really understand that. It will become clear later.
yes sir. I am over speculating I guess. I tried to read (or reread) the relevant posts but they are vast, it will take time.
However, in the long run, all puthujjana (in any realm, including the Deva and Brahma realms) are mostly reborn in the apayas. That is when the dukkha vedana becomes unbearable. This is why attaining the Sotapanna stage is critical.
yes sir. I understand this above part to some extent. The dukkha is main thing. I have read about various hells, their descriptions, various causes which cause one to take birth there. That is when I started feeling urgency and felt that, only attaining sotapanna must be most important thing in life, everything else is secondary. Even right now I am getting goosebumps and fear as I read the word ‘apayas’. You are right sir, this is most serious thing many people ignore. The urgency is real. Thankfully I am fortunate to have this fear. I also feel that my parents, family and other close people are also subject to this, being puthujjanas. I am sure 100% they are not sotapanna. And this realization is ultimately worrying for me. But until and unless I make myself secure and free from lower realms forever, I can never hope to help them, ever. Thankfully my good kamma allowed me to have this urgency and fear.
I plan to discuss that in detail in upcoming posts. This is why ‘uccheda ditthi‘ (the wrong view that there is no rebirth process) is the most dangerous.
It would be really good sir! I actually had the ‘sassata ditthi’ very strongly. I mean I knew about impermanence (which is wrong translation of ‘anicca’) but I never gave any attention to it or became serious about it. But not anymore.
I understand one thing, going to the middle from ‘sassata ditthi’ is comparatively less difficult than going to the middle from ‘uccheda ditthi’. Really it is very needed to understand how one with ‘uccheda ditthi’ is at worse state than one with ‘sassata ditthi’. One with sassata ditthi can at least try to see the issue and try to understand why his view could be problem, but the one with uccheda ditthi could be like, blindly going downwards, never bothering even to try.
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